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dietzpa
Aug 8, 2005, 2:42 AM
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ok. so i watch the news regularily, and know what, im pretty sick of BASE jumpers justifying thier sport by saying:
"Yosemity is 1 of the top 6 places to Jump in the Whole World" and adding to the liability that seems to be warrenting the close down of some of the best climbing and hiking in the country (USA).
It seems these days that liability is half access rights, and idiots jumping off the top of cliffs is killing those responsible enough to use a rope and ATC.
Lets face it: when it comes to climbing or BASE jumping, Climbing is pretty safe, even if your belay buddy is a few bricks short of a building...
PS: reponses to this post arent going to get a response from ME, its an opinion, and there are pleanty or RC.com uses to add to the fire...
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dietzpa
Aug 8, 2005, 2:46 AM
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Hey,
Sorry, I really should have added this to the "access" forum, but it didnt happen that way and a moderator will eventually put it in the right place. Sorry.
Dietzpa
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ullr
Aug 8, 2005, 2:48 AM
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How about Derek Hersey pitching off and dying while soloing the Steck/Salathe?
Or countless others who have died in Yosemite?
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veganboyjosh
Aug 8, 2005, 2:57 AM
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i'm sure that there are base jumpers who would argue that with the proper equipment, training, and experience, base jumping is relatively safe.
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joentia
Aug 8, 2005, 3:00 AM
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either way if it cause a good climbing area to be closed down then theres a problem. considering base jumping has nothing to do with climbing why should we suffer for there mistakes
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oblivionwolf
Aug 8, 2005, 3:02 AM
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The thought of someone trying to 'close down' Yosemite...
The arrogance in the concept of closing down publicly owned (ya that's right, the government doesn’t own the land the people own the land. We employ the government to regulate that which is ours.) nature (which makes it arguable that it was never ours in the first place) - "OK folks shut it down." Imagine trying to enforce that.
Why does the solution for people doing something obviously dangerous, that does not directly affect other people, have to be regulation? Let them kill themselves. What do you care? Just make sure they understand - they don't have any mandated 'right' to expect to be rescued. Any help is strictly voluntary and will not take taxpayers money. If they want to pay a rescue teem to help them out - let the free market take care of that. If you are worried about a mess at the bottom of a public cliff when some bonehead decks - have them leave a deposit to cover cleanup when they enter the park. They can collect it on the way back out if they haven’t died yet.
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dietzpa
Aug 8, 2005, 3:02 AM
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To Ullr:
ok, ill warrent 1 response.
Nobody "pitches" themselves off a climb for god sake. have some respect. climbers lose grip, control, etc. but they dont throw themselves off a cliff.
you described suicide, not climbing, chose your language carefully.
And dont take this as hyprocracy. Base is not equal to climbing in terms of safety, I think most will agree...
Edited because i wanted to respond to a user, nothing more. Have at this...
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davidorchard
Aug 8, 2005, 3:11 AM
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In reply to: The thought of someone trying to 'close down' Yosemite... The arrogance in the concept of closing down publicly owned (ya that's right, the government doesn’t own the land the people own the land. We employ the government to regulate that which is ours.) nature (which makes it arguable that it was never ours in the first place) - "OK folks shut it down." Imagine trying to enforce that.
okay i have one word... Hueco Tanks. :?
In reply to: Why does the solution for people doing something obviously dangerous, that does not directly affect other people, have to be regulation? Let them kill themselves. What do you care? Just make sure they understand - they don't have any mandated 'right' to expect to be rescued. Any help is strictly voluntary and will not take taxpayers money. If they want to pay a rescue teem to help them out - let the free market take care of that. If you are worried about a mess at the bottom of a public cliff when some bonehead decks - have them leave a deposit to cover cleanup when they enter the park. They can collect it on the way back out if they haven’t died yet.
i like this part though, but i have been drinking.
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oblivionwolf
Aug 8, 2005, 3:16 AM
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Well, that is two words but you have been drinking. I must not have heard, what happened at Hueco?
Of course you liked the second part ... and it has nothing to do with your drinking - I am just awesome.
:roll:
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oblivionwolf
Aug 8, 2005, 3:32 AM
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In reply to: you described suicide
No - suicide would be intentionally jumping off the cliff without a parachute or a rope.
You making a difference statement based on the danger of the activity is obviously absurd. No base jumper plans on decking any more than any climber - insane free soloist included. They have judged themselves competent and equipped to challenge gravity on unforgiving terms. Saying one is more dangerous would require you to at least have some sort of statistics (lies though they are likely to be) showing that per participation, accidents occur more often in base jumping. BASE jumping certainly has more risk involved then much of climbing - but would you also limit those high end climbers that could be shown to be taking similar or greater risks? Nobody becomes a BASE jumper overnight - just like nobody becomes a nationally successful free soloist overnight. They have each committed themselves to countless hours of training and experience and are pushing the very limits of their art.
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musicman
Aug 8, 2005, 4:37 AM
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In reply to: "Yosemity..."
you think if you really cared about the place you'd learn to spell it right! haha, sorry, couldn't help it.
Well, i'm gonna have to agree with one of the above posters, how many people (who don't climb) look at climbing and say "gee, that sure does look fun, safe, and easy!" well, turns out it is relatively safe, occasionally fun, and well, easy, let's leave that one alone. I'm sure it's the same with base jumping, maybe not quite as safe, but i dont' know for sure.
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rmiller
Aug 8, 2005, 4:38 AM
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So, where exactly has BASE jumping led to a closure of a climbing area? Or even potential closure of a climbing area?
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jamming_man
Aug 8, 2005, 4:39 AM
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WHAT HAPPENED AT HUECO??
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climbsomething
Aug 8, 2005, 4:39 AM
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climbsomething moved this thread from Alpine & Ice to General.
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lewisiarediviva
Aug 8, 2005, 4:51 AM
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The Perrine Bridge is also one of the six places in the world to B.A.S.E. jump. The community of Twin Falls, Idaho has noted that at the City of Rocks, an hour away, some climbers die, most do not. We decided that B.A.S.E. jumpers know they are taking a risk just like climbers know they are taking a risk. So we let the jumpers jump. Many people will see them and pull over at the overlooks to watch. (It's amazing how many people drive over the bridge and don't even notice them.) Some of them die, most do not.
I've done a little bit of looking into the world of B.A.S.E. jumping because I was amazed that our bridge was spoken of so highly by 'them.' The websites I have looked at are really good about pointing out that a lot of traffic uses the bridge, so they emphasize being discrete to avoid traffic accidents. They seem cool to me-
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tattooed_climber
Aug 8, 2005, 4:52 AM
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too many reasons to list why this thread shouldn't exist
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jelliott
Aug 8, 2005, 5:05 AM
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As of July 8, 2004 there have only been approximately 80 deaths since 1981. That is from an informal base jumping historian(www.blincmagazine.com/cms/article_420.shtml). In the US alone 1988 - 2003 there have been 1,304 climbing fatalities (Accidents in North American Mountaineering). So a stupid belayer will kill you. Base jumping is the achievement for those after years of training. Just like there are few true free soloist accidents resulting in fatalites there are few base jumping fatalities. The fatalities for skydiving in general are close to mountaineering or climbing in general. But Base jumping is closer to high level free soloing and in Yosemite there has only been one free soloist fatality when they had actually planned to free solo. The incidence of impromptu free soloing leads to higher levels of deaths. In yosemite I believe there has only been 2-3 base jumping fatalities and one of them that i know of was not from falling but jumping in the Merced with his chute and drowning while running away from rangers. So stoping being like every flippin' tourist that watches someone climb. "That is soo dangerous those guys will probably die" and actually look into base jumping before stating as the cause for possibly Yosemite closure. Lets not forget that climbers might have something to do with the problem.
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bler
Aug 8, 2005, 3:12 PM
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what ever happened to the yos hang-gliders ?
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ullr
Aug 8, 2005, 3:28 PM
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In reply to: To Ullr: ok, ill warrent 1 response. Nobody "pitches" themselves off a climb for god sake. have some respect. climbers lose grip, control, etc. but they dont throw themselves off a cliff. you described suicide, not climbing, chose your language carefully. And dont take this as hyprocracy. Base is not equal to climbing in terms of safety, I think most will agree... Edited because i wanted to respond to a user, nothing more. Have at this...
Your point of view of the relative safety or danger of your chosen activity is your opinion. You have a right to express your opinion.
Let others express themselves through their chosen activity. Who is one individual to decide what activities are deemed unacceptably dangerous?
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a_guy_named_smith
Aug 8, 2005, 3:41 PM
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[quote="jelliott"]As of July 8, 2004 there have only been approximately 80 deaths since 1981. That is from an informal base jumping historian(www.blincmagazine.com/cms/article_420.shtml). In the US alone 1988 - 2003 there have been 1,304 climbing fatalities (Accidents in North American Mountaineering). So a stupid belayer will kill you. Base jumping is the achievement for those after years of training. Just like there are few true free soloist accidents resulting in fatalites there are few base jumping fatalities. The fatalities for skydiving in general are close to mountaineering or climbing in general. But Base jumping is closer to high level free soloing and in Yosemite there has only been one free soloist fatality when they had actually planned to free solo. The incidence of impromptu free soloing leads to higher levels of deaths. quote]
i dont doubt that base jumping is a result of being highly trained just as the ability to do a high level free solo is.
but i raise a skeptical eyebrow at the claim that basejumping is safer because there are fewer accidents.
Claiming that base jumping has fewer deaths than climbing because there are, well, fewer deaths doesnt tell us much.
sure the raw numbers tell us that
but to make those numbers relevant we need to know how many base jumping deaths occur per base jump and how many climbing deaths occur per climb
it could be that there are fewer base jumping deaths and therefore it is safer, but
i am guessing that that there are a lot fewer base jumpers than climbers, and that the # of deaths per climb are a lot lower than the # per base jump.
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skateman
Aug 8, 2005, 3:43 PM
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" As of July 8, 2004 there have only been approximately 80 deaths since 1981. That is from an informal base jumping historian(www.blincmagazine.com/cms/article_420.shtml)."
2 Questions:
I wonder how many injuries there were from base jumping?
I'm wondering what the fatalities to participant ratio is for base jumping versus climbing?
Not to make this a contest or anything. To each his/her own.
Anyone remember that show from the seventies "thrillseaker"? I remember some awesome footage of basejumping on that show. And you didn't think anyone remembered the seventies :-)
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caughtinside
Aug 8, 2005, 3:57 PM
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I had a roommate who was way into BASE. I think he told me that the fatality rate for jumpers was above 10%.
Sure, there have only been 80 BASE deaths. But BASE jumpers have also died doing skydiving stunts, that aren't included.
While living with that guy for a year and a half, I met three other jumpers who died in BASE/skydiving accidents.
There's probably less than 1000 people who regularly BASE jump in the world, so the numbers will be low.
Not that any of this has to do with climbing, or restricting climbing access. :P
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jelliott
Aug 8, 2005, 4:54 PM
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In reply to: i dont doubt that base jumping is a result of being highly trained just as the ability to do a high level free solo is. but i raise a skeptical eyebrow at the claim that basejumping is safer because there are fewer accidents. Claiming that base jumping has fewer deaths than climbing because there are, well, fewer deaths doesnt tell us much. sure the raw numbers tell us that but to make those numbers relevant we need to know how many base jumping deaths occur per base jump and how many climbing deaths occur per climb it could be that there are fewer base jumping deaths and therefore it is safer, but i am guessing that that there are a lot fewer base jumpers than climbers, and that the # of deaths per climb are a lot lower than the # per base jump.
True but all in all you should compare base jumping to its equivalent in climbing and that is high level free soloing. The number of people that free solo above even 5.9 is probably comparable to base jumping. The point is that The fatality rate for free soloing is also pretty high when you start looking at those who actually do it on a regular basis. So if you want to compare climbing to any type of jumping you probably should compare it to all skydiving. And that is very low compared to the overall # of jumps a year.
Just my 2 cents
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dingus
Aug 8, 2005, 5:00 PM
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In reply to: The point is that The fatality rate for free soloing is also pretty high when you start looking at those who actually do it on a regular basis.
Wow, you sound like you've researched this! What is this free solo fatality rate to which you refer? What is the base jumping fatility rate? What is the general rock climbing fatality rate? How did you obtain these estimates?
DMT
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epic_ed
Aug 8, 2005, 5:17 PM
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epic_ed moved this thread from General to Community.
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