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roped-solo: Tying off each peice of pro
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Partner tattooed_climber


Aug 15, 2005, 5:26 PM
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roped-solo: Tying off each peice of pro
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this thread will probably end up in the aid forum



from my understanding, its a must do in aid (which i ussual do clove hitches) and not so much for trad (obvious), but i;ve seen other dudes do it.

i've seen other solo-ers do fig-8s and lots of other scazy shit (and nothing at the same time; no tie-offs anywhere)....i've been self teaching myself roped-soloing (just been aiding 5.8 to 10d cracks)...i've been clove hitching every peice of pro, but sometimes i get some wicked cross loading action (having slack between the 2nd and 3nd peices below myself when i'm tying off the next one)

so whats everyones thoughts on this, or some better recomendations?


asandh


Aug 15, 2005, 5:42 PM
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:)


Partner tattooed_climber


Aug 15, 2005, 6:07 PM
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if you actually READ my post you've noticed that i only do this for aid....so far i've ropesoloed only 3 trad lines...

as for aid, if you're on a A1 or A2 and your gear is solid, no worries about shit ripping out, and if you clove hitch to pro, it also acts like a daisy making you more efficient.....NOW, that's my understanding of tying off pro...

i scrolled through 5 pages of your posts and since 90% if not more of those pages you complete posts are smiley faces, i have to ask about your credibility. :roll:


don't say how to rope solo...i know that shit.....the topic is tying off pro....don't highjack and ramble off topic


jbell2355


Aug 15, 2005, 6:32 PM
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I've only ever rope soloed one trad pitch and have never aid climbed, but I thought I understood how rope-soloing worked. Your post makes me second-guess my understanding. There seems to be only disadvantages in tying off pieces. Why would you do it?


andy_reagan


Aug 15, 2005, 6:43 PM
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Why do you think you need to do this? I'm having a hard time finding any positives to this idea but like previous poster have found one blatantly obvious downfall.

In the spirit of this thread, a emoticon: :wtf:


greenketch


Aug 15, 2005, 6:52 PM
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I am not quite following your process either. If asandh is correct then I agree. You should build a bomber anchor at the bottom. and run your rope just like normal. I sometimes tie in every third or fourth piece as the weight of the rope pulls too much slack into your system. But at the very least if you are ties into everypiece any fall can be an owfull stiff catch. At the worst they are factor two falls and gear starts to fail or get beat up.

What sort of sytem are you using in your soloing?


asandh


Aug 15, 2005, 7:51 PM
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:)


foxtrotuniform


Aug 15, 2005, 8:23 PM
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There are a couple of fundamental problems with what you are doing.

First off, why are you tying off pro? Why is it necessary? The only legitimate reason is to keep the slack from running through your belay device under the weight of the lead rope under you. This is generally solved by tying off to a couple of pieces higher up on the pitches once this becomes a factor.

Another way is to use a prussik on a long sling from a piece of pro to the rope. A long prusik allows the rope to move a considerable ammount and avoid the factor two fall issue.

Tying off every piece? I have no idea why you would ever do this. I have no idea what you mean by "it acts like a daisy".

In reply to:
as for aid, if you're on a A1 or A2 and your gear is solid, no worries about s--- ripping out,

Factor two falls are a MAJOR consern no matter what the situation. They are bad for your rope, stress your gear to the absolute MAX. And they can hurt YOU.

The fact that you don't know this makes me really question your next statement.

In reply to:
don't say how to rope solo...i know that s---.....

Yeah, sure. Whatever you say.

And way to go jumping down the throat of the guy who tried to help you. You're up to a tool factor 10 there chief.

So on that note feel free to bring on the flames. Crashing airliners and Meteors both flame before they crater. I don't see why climbers are any different.


vegastradguy


Aug 15, 2005, 8:24 PM
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the only aid soloing i've ever done has involved a bomber anchor for upward directional with the end of the rope fixed to that and then my line running through pro to me.

cant say i've ever heard of cloving off to every piece...


herm


Aug 15, 2005, 8:30 PM
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Like GC said, once in a while to manage slack. I typically CH the first piece, to keep the anchor oriented, and then just often enough to keep slack from slithering back down the system, generally to redundant peices in easy sections. Hitching a piece concentrates the load of the fall onto the terminal section of rope above the knot; the more rope to catch the fall, the softer it will be. Hitching manky gear to protect hard moves would be a bad idea.


Partner tattooed_climber


Aug 15, 2005, 8:43 PM
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meh, should have posted in aid.....

flame?hope my words aren't too out of context, sorry if they are...

lots of people i bump into, when taking about solo aiding, like to tie off...

k i FULLY understand about fall factors and blah blah blah, but i'm talkin aiding on SOLID granite cracks here (and keep in mind i'm a traddie who isn't pounding pins or heads or hooking on these climbs)...how long can you fall if a piece you're standing on blows?(afew feet) and the placements are just as solid as trad (i make all placements bomber, no point in only placeing body weight stuff).....

as for the daisy part i should have said 'adjustable daisy'......plug pro, clove rope, and haul self up..

btw i'm just using a gri gri and a chest/seat harness setup


wonderbread


Aug 15, 2005, 8:47 PM
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I've soloed enough walls to let you know that you should definitely not clove hitch every piece. In fact you should not clove hitch any piece other than perhaps the first one after the anchor in order to keep your anchor oriented correctly. This does not matter whether you are on A1 or A5, don't clove hitch your rope to pieces as you ascend, for the obvious high fall factor reasons stated above, regardless of the difficulty. If you are concerned about the rope slipping through your belay device, scan the aid forum, there is lots of info there. I prefer prusiks for this, other use rubber bands and what not. But you should emphatically not clove hitch each piece, or even every third or fourth as you climb, if you can not grasp this, and the obvious reasons why, you should not be aid soloing. Cheers.


Partner wormly81


Aug 15, 2005, 8:54 PM
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Personally, I think you should relax and take the advice you ASKED for when you started this thread.

Jeff

PS. Statements like "how long can you fall if a piece you're standing on blows?(afew feet) and the placements are just as solid as trad (i make all placements bomber, no point in only placeing body height stuff)..... " show that you DONT "FULLY understand about {the significance of} fall factors"


curt


Aug 15, 2005, 8:57 PM
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In reply to:
meh, should have posted in aid.....

flame?hope my words aren't too out of context, sorry if they are...

lots of people i bump into, when taking about solo aiding, like to tie off...

k i FULLY understand about fall factors and blah blah blah, but i'm talkin aiding on SOLID granite cracks here (and keep in mind i'm a traddie who isn't pounding pins or heads or hooking on these climbs)...how long can you fall if a piece you're standing on blows?(afew feet) and the placements are just as solid as trad (i make all placements bomber, no point in only placeing body height stuff).....

as for the daisy part i should have said 'adjustable daisy'......plug pro, clove rope, and haul self up..

btw i'm just using a gri gri and a chest/seat harness setup

You're not one of those people here who ignore the correct answers to their initial questions, are you?

In reply to:
from my understanding, its a must do in aid (which i ussual do clove hitches) and not so much for trad (obvious), but i;ve seen other dudes do it....... so whats everyones thoughts on this, or some better recomendations?

You've now got much better information than you had initially. Please don't continue to insist that your current unsafe practices are OK. OK?

Curt


fear


Aug 15, 2005, 9:08 PM
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In reply to:
....i've been self teaching myself roped-soloing (just been aiding 5.8 to 10d cracks)...i've been clove hitching every peice of pro.......

so whats everyones thoughts on this, or some better recomendations?

Yeah, as long as you don't fall you'll never have a problem with that setup.

I think this might just be a very elegant troll... If so.. Bravo!

-Fear


Partner tattooed_climber


Aug 15, 2005, 9:14 PM
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i'm not insisting they are ok...thats why i started this thread..and i know what a fall factor is....

germ, thanks for the straight forward post, thats was what i wanted to hear...and to the rest of you guys though you may want to slap me around for this thread......

k, in retrospect, i may have been mislead by other climbers about tie-offs but i understand now why they did as many tie offs as they did (shit like zombie-roof in the smoke bluffs).....i was just lead to believe they are the thing to do for aid.....though curt may want to duke it out for the zero tie offs...


epic_ed


Aug 15, 2005, 10:07 PM
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No, dude, you absolutely don't tie off each piece, no matter how bomber your gear.

To solo aid you must have a bomber anchor and a reliable self-belaying device. I use a gri gri; there are a multitude of other options including using a clove hitch to self belay. But you don't use a knot or clove hitch on each piece to create a safety chain. Seriously -- every fall is a factor 2 if you do it this way, and I don't give a fuck who you saw doing it that way -- they we doing it dangerously. In addition to the danger of ripping gear, you're gonna wrench your body. The greater the fall factor, the more likely you are to pancake if you cross load the biner on your belay device.

Some who solo aid will clove hitch a bomber piece and then put a screamer on it to keep the weight of the rope from introducing too much slack into the system, but there are better ways to prevent that, too. I used to do the clove hitch stuff, but then I took a nice fall. It was only about 10 feet, and the pin held, but I wrenched my back something serious. Never again. I now use heavy duty rubber bands to "rebelay" the rope (thanks, Kate). They will break in a fall, allowing the rope and entirely safety system to work as it's supposed to, but will hold the rope in place and keep it from pulling slack down toward the anchor.

Bomber anchor; reliable belay device; all the gear in between you and the anchor you treat just like you would if you were leading with a partner.

Ed


epic_ed


Aug 15, 2005, 10:13 PM
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epic_ed moved this thread [In reply to]
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epic_ed moved this thread from General to Aid Climbing.


healyje


Aug 15, 2005, 10:48 PM
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Wonderland and Epic_Ed have it right - read their responses.


decaf


Aug 15, 2005, 11:43 PM
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I maybe semi hijacking a thread here, but Ed could explain the rebelay setup a little more? I saw a prussik mentioned earlier was wondering if it was similar

Thanks


ricardol


Aug 16, 2005, 1:53 AM
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thank god a few people chimed in who actually HAVE experience in leading solo aid pitches...

(it cracks me up when someone posts a response.. and start their post by saying .. "I've never done this before.. or I've only done 1 pitch" .. ) .. if you have limited experience .. chill and learn ..

.. Ed. question for you -- do you feel your rope gets more wear since you loose the ability to rebelay the rope at mid pitch by using the rubber bands .. (i've rebelayed below sharp rock in order to avoid jugging on a sharp edge) ..

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

No matter what the aid rating -- YOU NEVER hitch your lead line to every piece. You may hitch the first few pieces if there is not anchor to be built at the bottom of a climb (ie. 1st pitch of zodiac -- starts on 3 bolts, you can figure eight the 1st, then clove the next 2 for an anchor!) ..

.. you then rebelay your rope when solo aiding so that it doesn't weigh down, and feed through your belay device. (creating slack) ..

there are several methods ..

1 - Clove hitch -- or Figure eight. to a bomber piece ..

i only do this when the bomber piece is a bolt.

2 - Use a long prussik. You attach the prussik to the rope pull the slack out of the rope (this IS important) .. and attach the prussik to a piece.

I usually only do this on cams.

3 - the kate rubber band method -- prussik a rubber band to the rope, attach rubber band to piece. If you fall the rubber band will break. -

I've never used this method.

=======================

There are several things to be aware of.. if you use prussiks, they must be long enough so that if you fall, the prussik will no be the one holding the fall.. it could kill you.

I carry about 3 or 4 long prussiks on a wall .. usually a pitch will need only 1 rebelay -- if the pitch is long, or wandering, you might need 2 ..

========================

one more thing -- if you rebelay your line to EVERY piece on a pitch, its going to be a PITA to clean .. why would you do that to yourself.


beesty511


Aug 16, 2005, 2:25 AM
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In reply to:
i've been self teaching myself roped-soloing (just been aiding 5.8 to 10d cracks)...i've been clove hitching every peice of pro, but sometimes i get some wicked cross loading action (having slack between the 2nd and 3nd peices below myself when i'm tying off the next one)

so whats everyones thoughts on this, or some better recomendations?
Stop what you are doing immediately. Back away from the rock. Don't ever rope solo again.

The truth of the matter is if you continue to rope solo, you are going to die. If rope soloing is too alluring for you in spite of that warning, then you should sit down with your family, friends, and significant other and make decisions with respect to organ donation, a living will, life insurance, and your final will and testament.

In reply to:
k i FULLY understand about fall factors and blah blah blah
You may have some academic awareness of what a factor 2 fall is, but if you are not able to apply what you know and avoid putting yourself in factor 2 fall situations when you are actually climbing, then you are going to die. In your limited rope soloing experience, you subjected yourself to obvious factor 2 fall situations, yet you were oblivious to the danger.

The dead only know one thing: it's better to be alive.


reg


Aug 16, 2005, 5:49 AM
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my reply is more of a question. i know very little about aid or roped solo climbing but if you tie off a piece, would'nt that piece have to be oriented for upwards pull?
but, your placing them as you go up - for downward pull - protecting your fall - then you fall but you've tied the rope to them - yankin them up and out?!? am i missing something?


yetanotherdave


Aug 16, 2005, 6:32 AM
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In reply to:
2 - Use a long prussik. You attach the prussik to the rope pull the slack out of the rope (this IS important) .. and attach the prussik to a piece.

I usually only do this on cams.

I've seen this a few times, and solo-aided using prussiks to rebelay, but no-one seems to quantify 'long'. I know from experience that 2M is NOT long enough (and I have the melted prussik cord to remind me : ) How long are the prussiks people use for this?


tradclimbinfool


Aug 16, 2005, 6:45 AM
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In reply to:
k i FULLY understand about fall factors and blah blah blah, but i'm talkin aiding on SOLID granite cracks here (and keep in mind i'm a traddie who isn't pounding pins or heads or hooking on these climbs)...how long can you fall if a piece you're standing on blows?(afew feet) and the placements are just as solid as trad (i make all placements bomber, no point in only placeing body weight stuff).....
Please, I'm not trying to diss you, but if you don't understand the irrelevance of fall distance in a factor 2 fall, then you definitely do not understand about fall factors! Gear and rock can and will break in a factor 2 fall regardless of the distance fallen.

If all of your pieces are so bomber, why not do away with the belay rope altogether? (please note sarcasm!) Through your techniques you've basically negated the belay anyway.

Please educate yourself about these issues! To continue on in ignorance will evenutally get you hurt or worse.

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