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handtraverse
Aug 28, 2005, 10:36 PM
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Hello Everyone...As a beginning climber I go bouldering frequently, I practice setting up anchor systems for hours on end, I rappel a lot, I'd love to practice top roping but I still need a local partner, then I plan to move to TRAD. But for now my main question is about my rope and comes as a result of a rainstorm I recently was caught in while rappelling down a cliff in Mt Tammany, NJ: I saw the storm coming afar off and I quickly made a call to my home which was in the direction from where the storm was coming. Yes, there was torrential rain coming. I couldn't undo my practice anchor set up fast enough. By the time I was tying in for my first pitch rappell, the rain came like a blast. As I was letting myself down, the ATC acted as an old time clothes ringer as the rope was going through it... so much that there was a stream of water coming from the ATC, not to mention all the dirt and grit that got into the rope during the whole rappelling process. Now my thoughts are..is my rope ok? Remember, it was entirely, completely soaked to the core and lots of grit and dirt "squashed" through the ATC with the rope. Is it weakened or stretched? :roll: The rope I used is a 10.5mm dynamic rope (kernmantle, of course). Not dry rope. I don't know the manufacturer name 'cause I bought a 50m length from a local outfitter at the time. I bought it back in the month of April this year. Thanks, Handtraverse ___________________________ Mountains are not fair or unfair - they are just dangerous." - Reinhold Messner
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devonick
Aug 28, 2005, 11:15 PM
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your rope should be fine even though it was saturated to the core as it is just water, as for te dirt and grit, are you sure that it went into the actual core? if ti has check it thouroly( spelling?) to check for flat spots or rel un normal feeling patches. i would guess it would be fine still but dont take my word for gold on this as its yur life not mine and in the end its your call on wether or not you use it still
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dwebster
Aug 28, 2005, 11:44 PM
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The rope is fine. Rinse it out in an appropriate size tub of water and let it dry out of direct sun light.
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devonick
Aug 29, 2005, 12:12 AM
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yea it will be fine i doubt the grit would have got into the core at all, the worst thing that would have hapened would have been carrying the rope back to the car as it would have been real heavy
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handtraverse
Aug 30, 2005, 5:34 AM
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Thanks. Handtraverse
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philbox
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Aug 30, 2005, 5:49 AM
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I`ll mount a case against all the previous advice you`ve been given. Nylon ropes and slings definitely can be damaged by grit having been forced into the core. It is now understood that grit can cut away at the tiny threads that make up a rope or piece of sling. The rope may appear to be normal but the grit can act to reduce significantly the ability of a rope to do its job. There was a case of a crane lifting sling failing under a load that nowhere near aproached its rated load strength. It was discovered that grit worked away at the threads of nylon and thus the sling was significantly weakened. You definitely will need to give this rope a thorough washing and then treat it with a very gentle fabric softener to restore the ability of the nylon to somewhat lubricate itself so that the threads can once again do their dynamic job. You may even wash it a couple of times. Chuck the rope in a lingerie bag and then hoist the whole lot in a washing machine and then put some pure soap in with it. Agitate the load for as long as possible using warm water not hot. Do that twice and then give it another go with the fabric softener. I would not recommend this rope as a dynamic belay rope for lead climbing ever again. It is now past that use. Use the rope only for abseiling or hauling loads.
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dwebster
Aug 30, 2005, 8:54 PM
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I will repeat my original post. The rope is fine. Yes, sand and dirt will weaken a rope..... over time. All you have done is perhaps shorten the life of the rope. All you need to do is rinse the rope by submerging it in water and shake it around by hand. Do it a couple of times if you think it needs it. The temperature of the water is no concern, it can be as hot as you like or as cold as you like. Whatever you do, however, DO NOT USE FABRIC SOFTENER. Fabric softener will do what it says, SOFTEN. You do not want to do that unless you want a rope with fibers that are SOFT. If you doubt what I am saying PM me and I will explain how I know what I know.
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philbox
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Aug 30, 2005, 10:01 PM
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Please enlighten us all dwebster. I`m all ears.
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dwebster
Aug 31, 2005, 12:26 AM
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Sorry Phil, I didn't mean to sound arrogant or step on your toes or anything.
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handtraverse
Aug 31, 2005, 5:49 AM
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Philbox wrote:
In reply to: I`ll mount a case against all the previous advice you`ve been given. Nylon ropes and slings definitely can be damaged by grit having been forced into the core. It is now understood that grit can cut away at the tiny threads that make up a rope or piece of sling. The rope may appear to be normal but the grit can act to reduce significantly the ability of a rope to do its job. There was a case of a crane lifting sling failing under a load that nowhere near aproached its rated load strength. It was discovered that grit worked away at the threads of nylon and thus the sling was significantly weakened. You definitely will need to give this rope a thorough washing and then treat it with a very gentle fabric softener to restore the ability of the nylon to somewhat lubricate itself so that the threads can once again do their dynamic job. You may even wash it a couple of times. Chuck the rope in a lingerie bag and then hoist the whole lot in a washing machine and then put some pure soap in with it. Agitate the load for as long as possible using warm water not hot. Do that twice and then give it another go with the fabric softener. I would not recommend this rope as a dynamic belay rope for lead climbing ever again. It is now past that use. Use the rope only for abseiling or hauling loads. _________________ ...Phil... Great stuff Phil. I must completely agree with everything you just said. It's absolutely logical. Thanks. I will retire the rope...and besides, the outer sheath is getting a little too fuzzy for my liking anyway!. And to be honest, this is the second time the rope underwent water and grit, except this time the rope just didn't look right while it was under load during rappell. And this time it bothers me. As for Dwebster:
In reply to: Yes, sand and dirt will weaken a rope..... over time. All you have done is perhaps shorten the life of the rope I think you said what Phil said. "Shorten the life of the rope" Handtraverse ____________________________________ "Mountains are not fair or unfair - they are just dangerous." - Reinhold Messner " PS 1: Dwebster, "fabric softener will do what it says...Soften" I'm not sure what your saying here ?? :roll: PS 2: Thanks, I appreciate EVERYONE'S comments, advice, and opinions.
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squish
Aug 31, 2005, 6:11 AM
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In reply to: I think you said what Phil said. "Shorten the life of the rope" Any kind of use will shorten the life of a rope--the real question is how much. You know how much dirt and stuff works into your rope just through regular use? Just wash a "clean" rope sometime... I don't think getting the rope wet and dirty is anything to be concerned about, especially if you clean it afterwards. I've done the same with my rope, cleaned it, and continued to use it until it was time for it to retire. You need to base your decision on the condition of the rope and its pattern of use, not one single incident of it getting dirty. If you feel it's already too well used, and this one time put it over the top, then by all means retire it.
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philbox
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Aug 31, 2005, 6:30 AM
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I am led to believe that manufacturers are steering away from mandatory use by dates. A rope is only good the day it leaves the factory. After that it all depends (tm). A rope may need retiring after one use or it could be good for many years. It all depends on the use it is put to and how much damage is sustained during that use. A rope of course should be inspected before during and after use. That is the only safe method of determining a ropes effective use by date. What I mean by this rope inspection protocol is that each time you use a rope you will be running it through your fingers, that is the time to be picking up imperfections and sudying the rope for possible damage. When using a rope I am mindful to be on the lookout for damage occuring as I am handling the rope. When rapping over an edge I am mindful that I don`t drag the rope back and forth over an edge. What I am really saying is that ropes need care and maintainence to preserve their life saving functions. They support life loads so they should be treated as such. treat them kindly and they will serve you well.
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beesty511
Aug 31, 2005, 7:56 AM
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In reply to: Hello Everyone...As a beginning climber I go bouldering frequently, I practice setting up anchor systems for hours on end, I rappel a lot, I'd love to practice top roping but I still need a local partner, then I plan to move to TRAD. Good on you. When I first started, I also practiced anchor building at local crags, and often climbers would approach me and chat about what I was doing. I made a good enough impression on some of them that they invited me to climb with them. You'll find a partner. Keep practicing until you do.
In reply to: A rope of course should be inspected before during and after use. In reply to: The rope may appear to be normal but the grit can act to reduce significantly the ability of a rope to do its job. How do you inspect for grit damage then? And, how do you climb without exposing your rope to grit? I predict that if you washed one of your lead ropes tomorrow, the water would be dirty with grit. Should you retire that rope? If not, how is that consistent with your previous advice, which appears to be: "if grit comes out of your rope when it's wet, then you should retire it."
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robdotcalm
Aug 31, 2005, 3:37 PM
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Assertions for which I’ve never seen any data presented (either for or against). Wash a rope in soap not detergent. Wash a rope in a mild detergent. (How do you define ‘mild’?) Use a fabric softener. If there is any factual basis to support or refute any of these assertions, I’d be interested in hearing about it. When these topics have arisen in conversation, the usual rationale is totally theoretical with no supporting experimental evidence. With all due respect to the preceding contributors, the present thread continues this tradition. Cheers, Rob.calm
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robdotcalm
Aug 31, 2005, 3:46 PM
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«The rope I used is a 10.5mm dynamic rope (kernmantle, of course). Not dry rope. I don't know the manufacturer name 'cause I bought a 50m length from a local outfitter at the time. I bought it back in the month of April this year. » It seems to me this statement is the most potentially dangerous not whether the rope got wet. I've never heard of buying a climbing rope in "lengths" from an outfitter and not knowing the brand name. Heck, let alone lead, I would be hesitant to rappel on such a rope. Cheers, Rob.calm
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golsen
Aug 31, 2005, 5:33 PM
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I think there has been some good advice given by all. Assuming that your rope is from a reputable manufacturer and is built for leading I would say it is fine after rinsing and wasshing. Think about the use and abuse a rope takes on a wall. Rain, hauling, rapping, jugging. You dont think that a bit of sand and stuff gets into the rope? Now take these activities to good ole southerrn utah. Fisher Towers sand and grit, Zions navaho sandstone and grit. I believe retiring a rope because it got a little wet and dirty is pretty darn conservative but ultimately it is up to you. Gary
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brianinslc
Aug 31, 2005, 5:44 PM
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In reply to: I believe retiring a rope because it got a little wet and dirty is pretty darn conservative but ultimately it is up to you. Yep. You might take it out and measure the length. Seems like some ropes shrink a tad after they've been wet. I'd probably try what Phil suggested too. I can't imagine the rope would be ruined...but, hard to judge how much grit got "forced" into it. I'd think it'd be fine for rappel and TR in the least. -Brian in SLC
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helno
Aug 31, 2005, 7:03 PM
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Here is a link for reference: REI Website for Rope Care http://www.rei.com/online/store/LearnShareDetailArticlesList?categoryId=Climbing&url=rei/learn/climb/clmbropef.jsp good luck
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dwebster
Aug 31, 2005, 7:50 PM
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In reply to: Assertions for which I’ve never seen any data presented (either for or against). Wash a rope in soap not detergent. Wash a rope in a mild detergent. (How do you define ‘mild’?) Use a fabric softener. If there is any factual basis to support or refute any of these assertions, I’d be interested in hearing about it. When these topics have arisen in conversation, the usual rationale is totally theoretical with no supporting experimental evidence. With all due respect to the preceding contributors, the present thread continues this tradition. Cheers, Rob.calm While I don't have any data on the affects of specific brands of soaps and detergents on climbing rope I do know for a fact that nylon is adversely affected by strong alkalis (bases) and acids, basically both ends of the pH scale. Soap is typically made with lye or sodium hydroxide, both are at the top end for bases. Detergents may be more neutral but since manufacturers aren't required to list ingredients and most households don't measure pH in there laundry detergents it is difficult at best to know if it is safe for a climbing rope. If you can find out the pH of the detergents then you want one that is as close to neutral as possible; pure water of course being the absolute neutral. Fabric softeners are similar to detergents but again the ingredients are not required information. Some manufacturers will have MSDS available online and may have the pH information. When it comes right down to it you don't want to wash a rope with anything other than what has been proven to not degrade the performance/safety. You also don't want to wash a rope with anything that may remove any treatments that the manufacturer has put on the fibers of the sheath or the core. Fabric softeners may have lubricants but who is to say they are better than what was there in the first place? If you feel you must wash then use something very mild (mild being something with a near neutral pH). For the rope in this case if it is going to be retired, may I suggest a public service and have the rope tested.
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philbox
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Aug 31, 2005, 9:37 PM
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Gold trophy for dwebster. Listen to him, he does know what he is talking about.
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dwebster
Aug 31, 2005, 10:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Gold trophy for dwebster. Listen to him, he does know what he is talking about. But dwebster wrote «Soap is typically made with lye or sodium hydroxide, both are at the top end for bases.» This is true but irrelevant. Soap obviously is less basic than lye else it would burn your skin off when with you washed with it. A sincere input by dwebster, but no useful information. Cheers, Rob.calm Yes, but your rope is not made of skin. You have a good point though. It would be useful to know at what concentrations it becomes an issue. Also, I'm serious about testing the rope. I'd be happy to do it. To make it a fair test however, I would need a rope of the same model and similar age and usage, without the nuclear powered grit injecting rappel, for a control.
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philbox
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Aug 31, 2005, 10:41 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Gold trophy for dwebster. Listen to him, he does know what he is talking about. But dwebster wrote «Soap is typically made with lye or sodium hydroxide, both are at the top end for bases.» This is true but irrelevant. Soap obviously is less basic than lye else it would burn your skin off when with you washed with it. A sincere input by dwebster, but no useful information. Cheers, Rob.calm dwebster also qualified his statement.
In reply to: If you feel you must wash then use something very mild (mild being something with a near neutral pH). Whenever I wash my rope I use a whole bar of pure Lux soap. I cut it up with a knife (the soap not the rope :lol: ). An interesting test would be what sort of soap is closest to neutral PH. I would also like to find out what happens to the Lye when it is combined with fats to form soap. Obviously the lye is somewhat neutralised by the fat during the process of soap making. I would love to see a long length of rope cut up into test samples and the various test pieces subjected to different soaps and fabric softeners. As part of the test there would need to be an aged component to the test to see what the long term effects of having washed the rope. It would also be interesting to see what the effects of grit on a rope and a rope with the grit washed out of the rope would be.
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knudenoggin
Sep 1, 2005, 9:11 PM
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Many moons ago CMC Rescue advocated using Downy to recondition used (caving/nylon) ropes; Bruce Smith conducted some tests in which concentrated solutions were shown to have harmful effeccts; CMC's founder countered with tests using a practical solution, shown to have beneficial effects. (Hey, one can drink too MUCH water, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't stay hydrated.) The conclusion was that reasonable use of Downy (at least) was beneficial to ropes, restoring some lubrication. [Nylon Highway carried some of these reports.] Various rope makers have tables of fibre characteristics; it's curious that there are contradictions between some of these. A link to the Marlow one is: www.marlow-ropes.com/public/pageManager.cfm?page_id=20 *knudeNoggin*
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