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alpinerock
Aug 31, 2005, 1:43 AM
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Probably neither but i was curious as to the opinions of others.
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curt
Aug 31, 2005, 1:47 AM
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In reply to: Probably neither but i was curious as to the opinions of others. I view free soloing (which is what I think you meant) as a combination of trad climbing and bouldering. Curt
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ambler
Aug 31, 2005, 1:55 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Probably neither but i was curious as to the opinions of others. I view free soloing (which is what I think you meant) as a combination of trad climbing and bouldering. Or as Lito Tejada-Flores might put it, the application of bouldering rules to larger cliffs or mountains.
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vegastradguy
Aug 31, 2005, 1:56 AM
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i was going to say something clever, but then amblers post summed it up nicely. trophy for you!
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veganboyjosh
Aug 31, 2005, 1:57 AM
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isn't it it's own discipline? free solo means without gear, and sport and trad are both defined by their gear, no? sort of like saying "is bouldering sport or trad?", in my mind.
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curt
Aug 31, 2005, 1:59 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Probably neither but i was curious as to the opinions of others. I view free soloing (which is what I think you meant) as a combination of trad climbing and bouldering. Or as Lito Tejada-Flores might put it, the application of bouldering rules to larger cliffs or mountains. I suspect Gill might put it that way, as well. Curt
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alpinerock
Aug 31, 2005, 2:02 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Probably neither but i was curious as to the opinions of others. I view free soloing (which is what I think you meant) as a combination of trad climbing and bouldering. Yeah that makes sense, its more about the pure movement than bouldering and more the mentality of an old school trad climber
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bandidopeco
Aug 31, 2005, 2:06 AM
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Free soloing is free soloing. Umm, I don't have the experience to say more.
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flamer
Aug 31, 2005, 2:06 AM
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[quote="ambler"]In reply to: the application of bouldering rules to larger cliffs or mountains. I disagree. When bouldering falling is generally an option...ie one of the "rules". When soloing it is not. I would argue that the difference between soloing(well free and unroped) and bouldering would be the chance of death. IMHO high ball bouldering ends and soloing begins when if you fall you WILL die...high ball bouldering you MIGHT die. Standard bouldering well there's no commitment, and is something just plan different. I would also argue that free soloing is as tradITIONAL as it gets....the first climbers didn't have ropes or gear or crash pads...they had an eagerness to explore, courage, and the desire to push both. The main thing is just enjoy what you're doing....forget the labels. josh
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dingus
Aug 31, 2005, 2:13 AM
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Free solo climbing predates roped climbing by a few millenium, so be careful who you call trad. Its interesting, but when old dogs equate gear to trad it just sort of rolls off the tongue. Some stfunoob does it and we're all (I'm the 1st), 'trad isn't based upon the gear you carry.' Trad is ground up climbing baby and free soloing is as trad as it gets. You guys got it all wrong. It isn't new... its the oldest. It is the forefather. More gear = less trad. You know this... DMT
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ambler
Aug 31, 2005, 2:21 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: the application of bouldering rules to larger cliffs or mountains. I disagree. When bouldering falling is generally an option...ie one of the "rules". The rules Lito wrote about, in his classic essay "Games Climbers Play," refer simply to what is not allowed in any particular climbing "game." Bouldering, in Lito's analysis, is the most restrictive game because almost everything -- ropes, protection and belays (as well as ladders and helicopters) -- is not allowed. (Lito wrote before the advent of crash pads.) Anyway, bouldering stands thus in contrast to, say, alpine climbing, which allows all sorts of hardware but not fixed ropes and camps; or to the expedition game, which has practically no rules. Progress, as Lito saw it, consists in part of the application of more restrictive rules (such as alpine rules) to larger objectives (such as expeditionary peaks). For example, alpine-style ascents in the Himalaya, free ascents of aid routes, or solo ascents of Steck-Salathe.
In reply to: I would also argue that free soloing is as tradITIONAL as it gets....the first climbers didn't have ropes or gear or crash pads...they had an eagerness to explore, courage, and the desire to push both. Yes, it's traditional in a sense that predates the modern term "trad climbing."
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flamer
Aug 31, 2005, 2:35 AM
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In reply to: Bouldering, in Lito's analysis, is the most restrictive game because almost everything -- ropes, protection and belays (as well as ladders and helicopters) -- is not allowed. In reply to: I would also argue that free soloing is as tradITIONAL as it gets....the first climbers didn't have ropes or gear or crash pads...they had an eagerness to explore, courage, and the desire to push both. Yes, it's traditional in a sense that predates the modern term "trad climbing." Hmmm..I think I'd like to read this essay. Sounds interesting. The rule(in my mind) that makes a difference between bouldering and free soloing is ones ability to work a route *IN THE SAME STYLE* and fall repeatedly until an ascent is completed. I have issue's with the TERM "trad" it just seems to bastardize the WORD traditional. I think we're in agreement that free soloing predates "trad" :roll: climbing. What a fun discussion we're having!! josh
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ambler
Aug 31, 2005, 2:56 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Bouldering, in Lito's analysis, is the most restrictive game because almost everything -- ropes, protection and belays (as well as ladders and helicopters) -- is not allowed. In reply to: I would also argue that free soloing is as tradITIONAL as it gets....the first climbers didn't have ropes or gear or crash pads...they had an eagerness to explore, courage, and the desire to push both. Yes, it's traditional in a sense that predates the modern term "trad climbing." Hmmm..I think I'd like to read this essay. Sounds interesting. Lito's essay first appeared in the premier issue of Ascent, ca. 1967. Those are collectors' items now -- we who have them are hanging on tight. But the essay itself was later reprinted in, and gave its name to, a good anthology edited by then-Mountain editor Ken Wilson: http://www.chesslerbooks.com/...m.asp?idProduct=2855
In reply to: I have issue's with the TERM "trad" it just seems to bastardize the WORD traditional. I think we're in agreement that free soloing predates "trad" :roll: climbing. What a fun discussion we're having!! Yes, at first I thought this topic had no promise. I was mistaken.
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krisp
Aug 31, 2005, 3:45 AM
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This is a stupid f#$K^%NG question. I cant believe the veterans are wasting their time answering it! :roll:
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oldsalt
Aug 31, 2005, 3:49 AM
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After some meditation on the subject, I feel a connection between natural climbing and the different types of climbing. Free soloing, as noted previously, requires nothing beyond the tools we were given at birth. OK, add shoes. This is completely natural. Trad climbing involves the use of rope(s) and protection. Originally, trad climbers wedged pieces of rock into cracks to form protection, which is still pretty natural. Now trad gear has gotten as complex as NASA, but safer. What is natural about flex cams and big bros? Traddies, you must stop this pontificating about sport climbers, unless you are using all natural pro. Sport climbing is waaay less natural than trad. At least the traddies don't require a trail of bolts to get up the face. Trad climbers can truly leave no trace (except for rappel rings). To shine a light on the natural concept... I am driving along a mountain road and see a particularly attractive face. Assuming that I am looking at a crag and not into the car that I am passing, I want to climb it, so it is truly natural to get out and start pumping my way up. Ahh, the natural wonder of a free solo. Assuming that I am not inclined to free solo, I want a rope and protection. The technology that I bring to the climb marks how far down the path from natural I have gone. Stone chocks, wood chocks, aluminum nuts, hex nuts, cams, whatever, you see the progression. Now if I have no pro and must depend on bolts, I am so far into unnatural that I am actually carrying less technology on my body, just quickdraws. Oh, my head. ------------------------ "I'm so confused!" - Vinnie Barbarino
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musicman
Aug 31, 2005, 4:29 AM
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wow, when i first saw the thread title i was getting ready to see a pretty lame ass thread, then i noticed austin started it so i was getting even more worried, thought maybe you'd taken a fall soloing onto your head or something...anyway, this thread has turned out quite interesting. oldsalt, what you said was amazing. Even sport climbing more than anything else (convienance and i'm poor) i felt bad about it, i felt unnatural and i felt almost like i was cheating. Either way, there have been some good things said, some bad things said, and some things worth skipping over all together. ps, i was wondering this when i posted a photo of alpinerock soloing, just put it under sport because it was a sport route, seemed so obvious then...
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squish
Aug 31, 2005, 4:50 AM
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In reply to: Now if I have no pro and must depend on bolts, I am so far into unnatural that I am actually carrying less technology on my body, just quickdraws. Oh, my head. The way I see it with sport climbing, the "unnatural" technology has gone so far that it's no longer on the rack, but in the rock. It would be hard to argue that a cordless hammer drill and expansion bolts involve less technology or are more spontaneous than an aluminum wedge.
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healyje
Aug 31, 2005, 5:52 AM
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Assuming uniform skills and abilities, my take on the question is to look at it from the perspective of how much personal responsibility you assume for your own safety. Free soloing is pretty much the purest acceptance of that responsibility as you call all the shots and suffer the immediate consequences of any exercise in bad judgment. In trad climbing you share that responsibility with the folks that make your gear, but you are calling all the shots on how you use it to secure your safety. If you are competent with pro and blow it you likely will not get hurt. Bouldering is basically an exercise in self-limitation that has gained some height through the use of pads - much of the decision making around your safety is based on the choice of the venue and not being "lured" too far off the deck or into bad fall situations; but the decisions are still your own. In sport climbing you essentially abdicate all the decision making and responsibility for your safety to the folks that make your gear and whomever bolted the route - about the only decision you need to make for yourself is whether to leave the ground or not.
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iamthewallress
Aug 31, 2005, 6:17 AM
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It's climbing. Alone.
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kalcario
Aug 31, 2005, 7:00 AM
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*In trad climbing you share that responsibility with the folks that make your gear, but you are calling all the shots on how you use it to secure your safety. If you are competent with pro and blow it you likely will not get hurt.* Agreed. If you know how to place pro, it's not practically different safety-wise from sport, with the exception that in trad crack climbing, you never really have to fall because you can slam in a piece virtually anywhere. Whereas in sport you have no choice but to climb above the gear and take the fall, often in less-than-ideal situations where you would place a piece if you could. *Bouldering is basically an exercise in self-limitation that has gained some height through the use of pads - much of the decision making around your safety is based on the choice of the venue and not being "lured" too far off the deck or into bad fall situations; but the decisions are still your own.* I loathe the current bouldering fad more than anyone, but saying that "bouldering is basically an exercise in self-limitation" is pretty laughable. Say rather "just being a boulderer is an excercise in self-limitation" and you'll strike nearer the truth. *In sport climbing you essentially abdicate all the decision making and responsibility for your safety to the folks that make your gear and whomever bolted the route - about the only decision you need to make for yourself is whether to leave the ground or not.* In sport climbing your belayer is responsible for your safety, not the gear, which isn't going to fail; but really, this conceit that placing bomber cams and stoppers in granite cracks or sandstone splitters is more dangerous than clipping bolts, especially when you can place said cams/stoppers anywhere you want, is pure bullshit. Ever drive the freeways in LA? It makes trad climbing seem pretty tame. Further more, spewing this jive to those who don't know any better only encourages the bouldering/sport climbing mindset you're complaining about. It kinda pisses me off to hear experinced trad climbers talk like this because the uninitiated take this as gospel (partly because it reinforces their own misconceptions about trad, and helps them justify never stepping out of their comfort zone), and they form opinions about the danger of trad climbing based on some bitter self-aggrandizing hasbeen who wants to inflate the value of his paltry resume by promoting false conceptions about the danger of placing gear. It's not nice, and it keeps people from becoming trad climbers in the first place. So cool it, granpa.
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grover
Aug 31, 2005, 7:19 AM
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I would say neither. Soloing is in it's own league. No bolts. No gear. No rope. yep, It's own league. Unless you freak out and crack that beer you were saving for the top, mid-pitch and end up spilling that king-can all over your shoes and realize that you can't finish the route and start whining like a stuck pig. Then it becomes sport climbing. :twisted:
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healyje
Aug 31, 2005, 7:42 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In sport climbing you essentially abdicate all the decision making and responsibility for your safety to the folks that make your gear and whomever bolted the route - about the only decision you need to make for yourself is whether to leave the ground or not. In sport climbing your belayer is responsible for your safety, not the gear, which isn't going to fail; but really, this conceit that placing bomber cams and stoppers in granite cracks or sandstone splitters is more dangerous than clipping bolts, especially when you can place said cams/stoppers anywhere you want, is pure s---. Ever drive the freeways in LA? It makes trad climbing seem pretty tame. Further more, spewing this jive to those who don't know any better only encourages the bouldering/sport climbing mindset you're complaining about. It kinda pisses me off to hear experinced trad climbers talk like this because the uninitiated take this as gospel (partly because it reinforces their own misconceptions about trad, and helps them justify never stepping out of their comfort zone), and they form opinions about the danger of trad climbing based on some bitter self-aggrandizing hasbeen who wants to inflate the value of his paltry resume by promoting false conceptions about the danger of placing gear. It's not nice, and it keeps people from becoming trad climbers in the first place. So cool it, granpa. My comments had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the relative danger of posed by either sport or trad let alone sport versus trad, but rather [skill and ability (and belayers) being equal] what specific personal responsibility you as a climber have to assume when deciding to climb one or the other. In trad climbing you have no choice but to assume responsibility for placing your own protection; decide not to place any and you are free-soloing dragging a rope. In sport climbing protection is pre-placed by another person and the only decision available to you (other than likewise not clipping) is whether to climb the route or not - the responsibility for the placement of your protection on the route is not your own - i.e. you have abdicated it to another party. Again, my comments have nothing to do with the relative safety of any of the forms of climbing only the level of personal responsibility you have to assume to do it. Read it again and calm down, kid.
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kalcario
Aug 31, 2005, 8:08 AM
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*In trad climbing you have no choice but to assume responsibility for placing your own protection; decide not to place any and you are free-soloing dragging a rope. In sport climbing protection is pre-placed by another person and the only decision available to you (other than likewise not clipping) is whether to climb the route or not - the responsibility for the placement of your protection on the route is not your own - i.e. you have abdicated it to another party.* All of which amounts to splitting semantic hairs, especially given your "skill and ability being equal" qualifier...clipping a draw to a bolt and sticking a friend in a crack both involve the same level of choice and personal responsiblity, and since the crack-protected trad route offers way more protection per vertical foot than the bolted sport route, I'd say you're more responsible for your own safety on the sport route than on the trad, since falling is the thing that's dangerous and falls are easier to avoid on trad, both because of the frequency of gear placements and the relative lack of difficulty/strenuosness compared to sport. I'm more scared on a sport climb at my limit than I ever was on Astroman or the Rostrum, because I was basically carrying my courage on my shoulder sling in the form of all that spring-loaded hardware - somehow the draws don't make me feel as brave, probably because I can't put those wherever I want...also probably because the hard sport routes are actually hard...
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climbsomething
Aug 31, 2005, 8:12 AM
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In reply to: wow, when i first saw the thread title i was getting ready to see a pretty lame ass thread Me too. I wasn't disappointed.
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 31, 2005, 8:15 AM
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In reply to: Assuming uniform skills and abilities, my take on the question is to look at it from the perspective of how much personal responsibility you assume for your own safety. Free soloing is pretty much the purest acceptance of that responsibility as you call all the shots and suffer the immediate consequences of any exercise in bad judgment. There isn't any difference in the level of personal responsibility for one's own safety in the different variations of rock climbing. Some people like to think there is, and some others are paid to tell you there is.... In reply to: In trad climbing you share that responsibility with the folks that make your gear, but you are calling all the shots on how you use it to secure your safety. If you are competent with pro and blow it you likely will not get hurt.
In reply to: In sport climbing your belayer is responsible for your safety, not the gear, which isn't going to fail;
In reply to: In sport climbing you essentially abdicate all the decision making and responsibility for your safety to the folks that make your gear and whomever bolted the route - about the only decision you need to make for yourself is whether to leave the ground or not. See above. (both of these comments are idiotic, ie gear isn't going to fail, leader abdicates his responsibility for his own safety, that you share responsibility with gear manufacturers) In reply to: Bouldering is basically an exercise in self-limitation that has gained some height through the use of pads - much of the decision making around your safety is based on the choice of the venue and not being "lured" too far off the deck or into bad fall situations; but the decisions are still your own. The advent of pads increased the height that you could fall/jump from. Period.
In reply to: If you know how to place pro, it's not practically different safety-wise from sport, with the exception that in trad crack climbing, you never really have to fall because you can slam in a piece virtually anywhere. Whereas in sport you have no choice but to climb above the gear and take the fall, often in less-than-ideal situations where you would place a piece if you could. snip but really, this conceit that placing bomber cams and stoppers in granite cracks or sandstone splitters is more dangerous than clipping bolts, especially when you can place said cams/stoppers anywhere you want, is pure s---. It is funny how memories can alter over time. The only thing I can think of is that it has been so long since you have trad climbed..... I will agree that many of the routes at places like the creek and the tower are sport climbing with gear. Those places are hardly the norm for trad climbing. Sport climbing was developed in such a way as to exchange risk for difficulty. I love it when sport climbers try to make a case for sport climbing being a more "manly" activity then trad. Really, it fits so well with the personality type that is drawn to being a sport only climber. Just to keep things in perspective
In reply to: Ever drive the freeways in LA? It makes trad climbing seem pretty tame. These "experts." one of them claims to have started sport climbing a full ten years before smith rocks got going. The other had a valley nickname related to fairies, and quit trad climbing ~15 years ago.
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