Forums: Climbing Information: Technique & Training:
Bureaucrats and Belaying
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Technique & Training

Premier Sponsor:

 
First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All


lidosis


Sep 21, 2005, 2:09 PM
Post #1 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 8, 2003
Posts: 112

Bureaucrats and Belaying
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I work for a University and we are getting ready to start allowing students to belay each other again after a few year hiatus, and it is my intention to teach the hands down belay method, but as far as testing goes, hey if you keep your break hand on your good.

The school doesn't understand what I am talking about, and they don't want to go with some crazy new thing, unless everyone else is doing it.

I am looking for others who teach and use the hands down belay technique so that I may persuade those Bureaucrats, or of organizations that teach it.

Lid


landgolier


Sep 21, 2005, 2:29 PM
Post #2 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 3, 2005
Posts: 714

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Vertical Dreams in Manchester, NH, teaches hands-down. I'd seen it before, but didn't switch until I took the belay test there last year and the guy thought I was a noob and started teaching me how to do it. I got into a conversation with him about it and he explained how they think it's safer since you're pretty much always in a locked off postion, and I've been a convert ever since. I teach it to anyone new I take out, and I think it's vastly superior 90% of the time. The caveat is that if someone is really hauling ass on a toprope it can be a little bit quicker to get slack in hands-up, but that's really a matter of ape index and parctice anyway. I often hand-over-hand it to get slack in fast if need be, but I long ago taught myself to belay left handed so I feel comfortable locking off with my left hand if that should happen to be the hand on the rope when a fall happens.


ben87


Sep 21, 2005, 2:46 PM
Post #3 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 26, 2004
Posts: 229

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

NOLS was teaching it that way in Spring 2000, and I assume they still are. That's about as much institutional/program cred as you can get in outdoor education.

and yes, I think it's a lot better. Once you get used to it I think it's easier and more precise.


curt


Sep 21, 2005, 2:53 PM
Post #4 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18273

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

After the rope goes around my waist, it passes through my right hand, palm-up. Isn't that how most people do it? 8^)

Curt


lidosis


Sep 21, 2005, 2:56 PM
Post #5 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 8, 2003
Posts: 112

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Curt look at all those posts you got, I would say you can do what ever you want and the RC.com god will protect you.


veganboyjosh


Sep 21, 2005, 2:59 PM
Post #6 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 21, 2003
Posts: 1421

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

i'm confused...where does my foot come into play?


lidosis


Sep 21, 2005, 3:01 PM
Post #7 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 8, 2003
Posts: 112

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

its on the rope silly, you see the rope goes between your foot and the ground, that is the most effective belay, look ma no hands.


memory_hole


Sep 21, 2005, 3:05 PM
Post #8 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 29, 2005
Posts: 162

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I switch back and forth between palm up and palm down, mostly for reasons of limiting fatigue. Mostly I prefer the palm up method, though, because it seems like a quicker and more natural way to pay out slack.

I've belay tested at a few different gyms using either palm up or palm down and never had a tester comment one way or the other. None of my outdoor climbing partners have commented either, and it seems like they were pretty evenly split in their belay preferences. Without rehashing what is probably a pretty well hashed argument, could somebody quickly summarize the advantages of the palm down method?


landgolier


Sep 21, 2005, 5:00 PM
Post #9 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 3, 2005
Posts: 714

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

memhole,

Palm down is thought to be better because your break hand never leaves the "locked off" position, such that with a standard tube/plate style device you never get in a situation where a fall could come while you have the two strands parallel and thus the break strand in a bad position for providing friction. Regarless of how good people think they are, it still takes longer to pull down to the locked off position from this position than it does to simply grab tight and hold on. In theory you also have another split second to give a little bit of slip through the device for a dynamic belay, but the ratio of people who spray about how good they are at dynamic belays to the number of people who can actually pull it off when caught off guard by an unexpected fall is pretty large.


peteripnar


Sep 21, 2005, 5:08 PM
Post #10 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 28, 2005
Posts: 32

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

i teach the belay class at the University of akron rock wall, and i have found that hands up is easier to learn and people tend to break more naturally with it. The problem i see with the hands down approach is that yes, your hands are always in the break position, but not around the waist, and personally for me, growing up belaying with an ATC ( our gym, like most now adays use grigri's) around the waist gives more power while breaking. There used to be two instructors before me that thought the hands down (or what i have heard as the "European" style) was better, but after observing noob's belay on it, they do not understand braking the rope, and that it is important.

my final decision was to return to teaching hands up because if they were to tell someone someday that they knew what they were doing, belay on an atc, and proceed to belay hands down without understating true breaking.... because they were on a grigri before.... it could create a hazardous situation.....

so if you want easy lessons, teach people on the hands down method, but imo hand sup is in the long run safer.


memory_hole


Sep 21, 2005, 5:33 PM
Post #11 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 29, 2005
Posts: 162

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
memhole,

Palm down is thought to be better because your break hand never leaves the "locked off" position, such that with a standard tube/plate style device you never get in a situation where a fall could come while you have the two strands parallel and thus the break strand in a bad position for providing friction. Regarless of how good people think they are, it still takes longer to pull down to the locked off position from this position than it does to simply grab tight and hold on. In theory you also have another split second to give a little bit of slip through the device for a dynamic belay, but the ratio of people who spray about how good they are at dynamic belays to the number of people who can actually pull it off when caught off guard by an unexpected fall is pretty large.
Okay, so I clearly had a different idea of what people meant by "palm down". Can anybody point me to a site that has pictures of the palm down method?

edited to add: I answered my own request. Here's a good site that demonstrates the palm down method.
http://climbing.com/techtips/ttsport225/


dood


Sep 21, 2005, 5:57 PM
Post #12 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 2, 2004
Posts: 93

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Palms up? Palms down? I was confused until I realised you guys were talking about top roping. I thought you were talking about climbing.


memory_hole


Sep 21, 2005, 6:15 PM
Post #13 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 29, 2005
Posts: 162

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Palms up? Palms down? I was confused until I realised you guys were talking about top roping. I thought you were talking about climbing.
You're still confused; we're talking about belaying.


seraphless


Sep 21, 2005, 6:47 PM
Post #14 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 19, 2005
Posts: 35

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Palms up? Palms down? I was confused until I realised you guys were talking about top roping. I thought you were talking about climbing.

WTF?!!?!


jred


Sep 21, 2005, 7:00 PM
Post #15 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 27, 2003
Posts: 750

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Some organizations that use the method you describe are the AAMG, ACMG other European guiding bodies. You may also look at what the manufactures suggested belay method is of any in-line belay device. The hands up method is a technique for belaying with a "munter hitch" which happens to break upwards. If they still don't believe it check out Petzl's web site, I think it is www.petzl.com. Ask these people to find one instruction book, guide, web-site, climbing book, etc. that recommends the described technique for an in-line/friction belay device.

Lid


superbum


Sep 21, 2005, 7:16 PM
Post #16 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 19, 2002
Posts: 822

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I work at as a ropes course director for a summer camp up in Idaho. every year I conduct a pre-season training with the instructors. I teach the Hands down (thumb up when locked off) method for belaying. Once you get used to taking up slack quickly (it does feel harder at first than hands up) it is a superior method. There are a lot of good reasons why, most of them have been stated above or are mentioned in that Climbing article link.

The MAIN reason I teach it on the course is for the fatties. See, young adults come in all sizes and with the hands down method one's arm and hand is in a better position to hold a large load. The other way presents an opportunity for the load to pry the rope out from your fingers.

That said, once I feel comfortable with the instructors I usually let them belay in whatever fashion they feel most comfortable as long as they're doing it properly.


curt


Sep 21, 2005, 7:21 PM
Post #17 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18273

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Palms up? Palms down? I was confused until I realised you guys were talking about top roping. I thought you were talking about climbing.

Several of your other posts also indicate that you are easily confused.

Curt


curt


Sep 21, 2005, 7:26 PM
Post #18 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18273

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Palms up? Palms down? I was confused until I realised you guys were talking about top roping. I thought you were talking about climbing.

Several of your other posts also indicate that you are easily confused.

Curt


jschwartzel


Sep 21, 2005, 7:30 PM
Post #19 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 14, 2005
Posts: 7

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Palms up or down? I think the important thing is that you belay in the most natural, comfortable style for you. Personally, I find it awkward to belay a lead climber in the palm down position, so I do palm up for everything. It is important to stop the fall, not which hand position you do it with.


jred


Sep 21, 2005, 8:17 PM
Post #20 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 27, 2003
Posts: 750

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Some organizations that use the method you describe are the AAMG, ACMG other European guiding bodies. You may also look at what the manufactures suggested belay method is of any in-line belay device. The hands up method is a technique for belaying with a "munter hitch" which happens to break upwards. If they still don't believe it check out Petzl's web site, I think it is www.petzl.com. Ask these people to find one instruction book, guide, web-site, climbing book, etc. that recommends the described technique for an in-line/friction belay device.

Lid
On this note I would like to issue a challenge. I challenge anybody who uses the "pinch and slide" or palms up, belay method(s) to show one qualified source (ie; not "my uncle who has been climbing for x# of years does it that way") that says that this is the correct way to belay. My definition of a reputable source would be any catalog, book(ie; "Freedom of the Hills" etc.), instruction book from a gear manufacture, AAMG, ACMG, training booklet and so on. I am openly saying you are wrong and dangerous and asking you to prove otherwise. I have no problem proving that I am not wrong and dangerous (please see above). This is a matter that can not be solved by the tomato, toomato method of debate. Please ensure that the source is modern and demonstrates the method with an in-line device.


curt


Sep 21, 2005, 8:33 PM
Post #21 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18273

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Some organizations that use the method you describe are the AAMG, ACMG other European guiding bodies. You may also look at what the manufactures suggested belay method is of any in-line belay device. The hands up method is a technique for belaying with a "munter hitch" which happens to break upwards. If they still don't believe it check out Petzl's web site, I think it is www.petzl.com. Ask these people to find one instruction book, guide, web-site, climbing book, etc. that recommends the described technique for an in-line/friction belay device.

Lid
On this note I would like to issue a challenge. I challenge anybody who uses the "pinch and slide" or palms up, belay method(s) to show one qualified source (ie; not "my uncle who has been climbing for x# of years does it that way") that says that this is the correct way to belay. My definition of a reputable source would be any catalog, book(ie; "Freedom of the Hills" etc.), instruction book from a gear manufacture, AAMG, ACMG, training booklet and so on. I am openly saying you are wrong and dangerous and asking you to prove otherwise. I have no problem proving that I am not wrong and dangerous (please see above). This is a matter that can not be solved by the tomato, toomato method of debate. Please ensure that the source is modern and demonstrates the method with an in-line device.

Could you possibly clarify what you mean, because "pinch and slide" has nothing to do with "palms-up" or "palms-down." Thanks.

Curt


jred


Sep 21, 2005, 8:45 PM
Post #22 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 27, 2003
Posts: 750

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Curt, I only included the "pinch and slide" technique because it is also used in place of a correct belay method, I am aware that it is not what is being discussed.


jt512


Sep 21, 2005, 8:52 PM
Post #23 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21904

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
memhole,

Palm down is thought to be better because your break hand never leaves the "locked off" position, such that with a standard tube/plate style device you never get in a situation where a fall could come while you have the two strands parallel and thus the break strand in a bad position for providing friction. Regarless of how good people think they are, it still takes longer to pull down to the locked off position from this position than it does to simply grab tight and hold on. In theory you also have another split second to give a little bit of slip through the device for a dynamic belay, but the ratio of people who spray about how good they are at dynamic belays to the number of people who can actually pull it off when caught off guard by an unexpected fall is pretty large.

Are you saying that it is easier to dynamically belay using the palms down method? Because if you are that is just about the most absurd thing I've seen posted on this site.

-Jay


jt512


Sep 21, 2005, 8:57 PM
Post #24 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21904

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
i teach the belay class at the University of akron rock wall, and i have found that hands up is easier to learn and people tend to break more naturally with it. The problem i see with the hands down approach is that yes, your hands are always in the break position, but not around the waist, and personally for me, growing up belaying with an ATC ( our gym, like most now adays use grigri's) around the waist gives more power while breaking. There used to be two instructors before me that thought the hands down (or what i have heard as the "European" style) was better, but after observing noob's belay on it, they do not understand braking the rope, and that it is important.

It sounds like it is you who doesn't understand braking. There is no good reason to put the rope around your waist (unless of course you're doing a hip/waist belay) and a couple of good reasons not to.

-Jay


landgolier


Sep 21, 2005, 9:20 PM
Post #25 of 58 (6964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 3, 2005
Posts: 714

Re: Bureaucrats and Belaying [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

JT, I don't care to start another argument about dynamic belays, all I'm saying is that if you are already locked off in the "down" position you have another few microticks to plan/do whatever technique involving letting rope slip through the device you want to do. I'm not talking about jumping or the stone mountain ass-haul or anything like that.

No offense man, but you're starting to become the new PTPP around here.

First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Climbing Information : Technique & Training

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook