|
lidosis
Sep 21, 2005, 9:09 PM
Post #1 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 8, 2003
Posts: 112
|
I work for a University and we are getting ready to start allowing students to belay each other again after a few year hiatus, and it is my intention to teach the hands down belay method, but as far as testing goes, hey if you keep your break hand on your good.
The school doesn't understand what I am talking about, and they don't want to go with some crazy new thing, unless everyone else is doing it.
I am looking for others who teach and use the hands down belay technique so that I may persuade those Bureaucrats, or of organizations that teach it.
Lid
|
|
|
|
|
landgolier
Sep 21, 2005, 9:29 PM
Post #2 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2005
Posts: 714
|
Vertical Dreams in Manchester, NH, teaches hands-down. I'd seen it before, but didn't switch until I took the belay test there last year and the guy thought I was a noob and started teaching me how to do it. I got into a conversation with him about it and he explained how they think it's safer since you're pretty much always in a locked off postion, and I've been a convert ever since. I teach it to anyone new I take out, and I think it's vastly superior 90% of the time. The caveat is that if someone is really hauling ass on a toprope it can be a little bit quicker to get slack in hands-up, but that's really a matter of ape index and parctice anyway. I often hand-over-hand it to get slack in fast if need be, but I long ago taught myself to belay left handed so I feel comfortable locking off with my left hand if that should happen to be the hand on the rope when a fall happens.
|
|
|
|
|
ben87
Sep 21, 2005, 9:46 PM
Post #3 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 26, 2004
Posts: 229
|
NOLS was teaching it that way in Spring 2000, and I assume they still are. That's about as much institutional/program cred as you can get in outdoor education.
and yes, I think it's a lot better. Once you get used to it I think it's easier and more precise.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Sep 21, 2005, 9:53 PM
Post #4 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
After the rope goes around my waist, it passes through my right hand, palm-up. Isn't that how most people do it? 8^)
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
lidosis
Sep 21, 2005, 9:56 PM
Post #5 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 8, 2003
Posts: 112
|
Curt look at all those posts you got, I would say you can do what ever you want and the RC.com god will protect you.
|
|
|
|
|
veganboyjosh
Sep 21, 2005, 9:59 PM
Post #6 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 22, 2003
Posts: 1421
|
i'm confused...where does my foot come into play?
|
|
|
|
|
lidosis
Sep 21, 2005, 10:01 PM
Post #7 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 8, 2003
Posts: 112
|
its on the rope silly, you see the rope goes between your foot and the ground, that is the most effective belay, look ma no hands.
|
|
|
|
|
memory_hole
Sep 21, 2005, 10:05 PM
Post #8 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 30, 2005
Posts: 162
|
I switch back and forth between palm up and palm down, mostly for reasons of limiting fatigue. Mostly I prefer the palm up method, though, because it seems like a quicker and more natural way to pay out slack.
I've belay tested at a few different gyms using either palm up or palm down and never had a tester comment one way or the other. None of my outdoor climbing partners have commented either, and it seems like they were pretty evenly split in their belay preferences. Without rehashing what is probably a pretty well hashed argument, could somebody quickly summarize the advantages of the palm down method?
|
|
|
|
|
landgolier
Sep 22, 2005, 12:00 AM
Post #9 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2005
Posts: 714
|
memhole,
Palm down is thought to be better because your break hand never leaves the "locked off" position, such that with a standard tube/plate style device you never get in a situation where a fall could come while you have the two strands parallel and thus the break strand in a bad position for providing friction. Regarless of how good people think they are, it still takes longer to pull down to the locked off position from this position than it does to simply grab tight and hold on. In theory you also have another split second to give a little bit of slip through the device for a dynamic belay, but the ratio of people who spray about how good they are at dynamic belays to the number of people who can actually pull it off when caught off guard by an unexpected fall is pretty large.
|
|
|
|
|
peteripnar
Sep 22, 2005, 12:08 AM
Post #10 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 29, 2005
Posts: 32
|
i teach the belay class at the University of akron rock wall, and i have found that hands up is easier to learn and people tend to break more naturally with it. The problem i see with the hands down approach is that yes, your hands are always in the break position, but not around the waist, and personally for me, growing up belaying with an ATC ( our gym, like most now adays use grigri's) around the waist gives more power while breaking. There used to be two instructors before me that thought the hands down (or what i have heard as the "European" style) was better, but after observing noob's belay on it, they do not understand braking the rope, and that it is important.
my final decision was to return to teaching hands up because if they were to tell someone someday that they knew what they were doing, belay on an atc, and proceed to belay hands down without understating true breaking.... because they were on a grigri before.... it could create a hazardous situation.....
so if you want easy lessons, teach people on the hands down method, but imo hand sup is in the long run safer.
|
|
|
|
|
memory_hole
Sep 22, 2005, 12:33 AM
Post #11 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 30, 2005
Posts: 162
|
In reply to: memhole, Palm down is thought to be better because your break hand never leaves the "locked off" position, such that with a standard tube/plate style device you never get in a situation where a fall could come while you have the two strands parallel and thus the break strand in a bad position for providing friction. Regarless of how good people think they are, it still takes longer to pull down to the locked off position from this position than it does to simply grab tight and hold on. In theory you also have another split second to give a little bit of slip through the device for a dynamic belay, but the ratio of people who spray about how good they are at dynamic belays to the number of people who can actually pull it off when caught off guard by an unexpected fall is pretty large.
edited to add: I answered my own request. Here's a good site that demonstrates the palm down method.
http://climbing.com/techtips/ttsport225/
|
|
|
|
|
dood
Sep 22, 2005, 12:57 AM
Post #12 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 3, 2004
Posts: 93
|
Palms up? Palms down? I was confused until I realised you guys were talking about top roping. I thought you were talking about climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
memory_hole
Sep 22, 2005, 1:15 AM
Post #13 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 30, 2005
Posts: 162
|
In reply to: Palms up? Palms down? I was confused until I realised you guys were talking about top roping. I thought you were talking about climbing. |
|
|
|
|
seraphless
Sep 22, 2005, 1:47 AM
Post #14 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 20, 2005
Posts: 35
|
In reply to: Palms up? Palms down? I was confused until I realised you guys were talking about top roping. I thought you were talking about climbing.
WTF?!!?!
|
|
|
|
|
jred
Sep 22, 2005, 2:00 AM
Post #15 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2003
Posts: 750
|
Some organizations that use the method you describe are the AAMG, ACMG other European guiding bodies. You may also look at what the manufactures suggested belay method is of any in-line belay device. The hands up method is a technique for belaying with a "munter hitch" which happens to break upwards. If they still don't believe it check out Petzl's web site, I think it is www.petzl.com. Ask these people to find one instruction book, guide, web-site, climbing book, etc. that recommends the described technique for an in-line/friction belay device.
Lid
|
|
|
|
|
superbum
Sep 22, 2005, 2:16 AM
Post #16 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2002
Posts: 822
|
I work at as a ropes course director for a summer camp up in Idaho. every year I conduct a pre-season training with the instructors. I teach the Hands down (thumb up when locked off) method for belaying. Once you get used to taking up slack quickly (it does feel harder at first than hands up) it is a superior method. There are a lot of good reasons why, most of them have been stated above or are mentioned in that Climbing article link.
The MAIN reason I teach it on the course is for the fatties. See, young adults come in all sizes and with the hands down method one's arm and hand is in a better position to hold a large load. The other way presents an opportunity for the load to pry the rope out from your fingers.
That said, once I feel comfortable with the instructors I usually let them belay in whatever fashion they feel most comfortable as long as they're doing it properly.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Sep 22, 2005, 2:21 AM
Post #17 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: Palms up? Palms down? I was confused until I realised you guys were talking about top roping. I thought you were talking about climbing.
Several of your other posts also indicate that you are easily confused.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Sep 22, 2005, 2:26 AM
Post #18 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: Palms up? Palms down? I was confused until I realised you guys were talking about top roping. I thought you were talking about climbing.
Several of your other posts also indicate that you are easily confused.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
jschwartzel
Sep 22, 2005, 2:30 AM
Post #19 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 15, 2005
Posts: 7
|
Palms up or down? I think the important thing is that you belay in the most natural, comfortable style for you. Personally, I find it awkward to belay a lead climber in the palm down position, so I do palm up for everything. It is important to stop the fall, not which hand position you do it with.
|
|
|
|
|
jred
Sep 22, 2005, 3:17 AM
Post #20 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2003
Posts: 750
|
In reply to: Some organizations that use the method you describe are the AAMG, ACMG other European guiding bodies. You may also look at what the manufactures suggested belay method is of any in-line belay device. The hands up method is a technique for belaying with a "munter hitch" which happens to break upwards. If they still don't believe it check out Petzl's web site, I think it is www.petzl.com. Ask these people to find one instruction book, guide, web-site, climbing book, etc. that recommends the described technique for an in-line/friction belay device. Lid |
|
|
|
|
curt
Sep 22, 2005, 3:33 AM
Post #21 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: In reply to: Some organizations that use the method you describe are the AAMG, ACMG other European guiding bodies. You may also look at what the manufactures suggested belay method is of any in-line belay device. The hands up method is a technique for belaying with a "munter hitch" which happens to break upwards. If they still don't believe it check out Petzl's web site, I think it is www.petzl.com. Ask these people to find one instruction book, guide, web-site, climbing book, etc. that recommends the described technique for an in-line/friction belay device. LidOn this note I would like to issue a challenge. I challenge anybody who uses the "pinch and slide" or palms up, belay method(s) to show one qualified source (ie; not "my uncle who has been climbing for x# of years does it that way") that says that this is the correct way to belay. My definition of a reputable source would be any catalog, book(ie; "Freedom of the Hills" etc.), instruction book from a gear manufacture, AAMG, ACMG, training booklet and so on. I am openly saying you are wrong and dangerous and asking you to prove otherwise. I have no problem proving that I am not wrong and dangerous (please see above). This is a matter that can not be solved by the tomato, toomato method of debate. Please ensure that the source is modern and demonstrates the method with an in-line device.
Could you possibly clarify what you mean, because "pinch and slide" has nothing to do with "palms-up" or "palms-down." Thanks.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
jred
Sep 22, 2005, 3:45 AM
Post #22 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2003
Posts: 750
|
Curt, I only included the "pinch and slide" technique because it is also used in place of a correct belay method, I am aware that it is not what is being discussed.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Sep 22, 2005, 3:52 AM
Post #23 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: memhole, Palm down is thought to be better because your break hand never leaves the "locked off" position, such that with a standard tube/plate style device you never get in a situation where a fall could come while you have the two strands parallel and thus the break strand in a bad position for providing friction. Regarless of how good people think they are, it still takes longer to pull down to the locked off position from this position than it does to simply grab tight and hold on. In theory you also have another split second to give a little bit of slip through the device for a dynamic belay, but the ratio of people who spray about how good they are at dynamic belays to the number of people who can actually pull it off when caught off guard by an unexpected fall is pretty large.
Are you saying that it is easier to dynamically belay using the palms down method? Because if you are that is just about the most absurd thing I've seen posted on this site.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Sep 22, 2005, 3:57 AM
Post #24 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: i teach the belay class at the University of akron rock wall, and i have found that hands up is easier to learn and people tend to break more naturally with it. The problem i see with the hands down approach is that yes, your hands are always in the break position, but not around the waist, and personally for me, growing up belaying with an ATC ( our gym, like most now adays use grigri's) around the waist gives more power while breaking. There used to be two instructors before me that thought the hands down (or what i have heard as the "European" style) was better, but after observing noob's belay on it, they do not understand braking the rope, and that it is important.
It sounds like it is you who doesn't understand braking. There is no good reason to put the rope around your waist (unless of course you're doing a hip/waist belay) and a couple of good reasons not to.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
landgolier
Sep 22, 2005, 4:20 AM
Post #25 of 58
(7061 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2005
Posts: 714
|
JT, I don't care to start another argument about dynamic belays, all I'm saying is that if you are already locked off in the "down" position you have another few microticks to plan/do whatever technique involving letting rope slip through the device you want to do. I'm not talking about jumping or the stone mountain ass-haul or anything like that.
No offense man, but you're starting to become the new PTPP around here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
