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wetyeti
Sep 19, 2005, 11:40 PM
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found a spot that needs bolts. never bolted before but figure this place is worth it. its wingate and we just want to put in rap anchors. so teh question
hand or mechanized drill? glue in or just expansion fatties??
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slobmonster
Sep 20, 2005, 1:01 AM
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It's not very difficult to drill into Wingate, even with a hand drill.
Some caveats:
*It can be quite difficult keeping the start of your hole straight, i.e. not "blown out." Be particularly careful when starting your hole.
*Keep your hole clean. Your drill may bind --and the bolt may not tighten down properly-- if you don't take time to clean the hole out. Bring a blow tube; if you're on a budget, a bendy-straw can work.
*Use at bolts of at least 3/8ths diameter. Use longer bolts than you might in granite... 3.5" should be a minimum.
*Consider orienting your anchor vertically, as opposed to placed at the same horizontal level. This way, the top bolt is truly a backup to the lower one. This kind of orientation can maintain shear loading on the top bolt, instead of dreaded pull-out.
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price1869
Sep 20, 2005, 6:23 PM
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Better yet, just build a natural anchor. There is always a way.
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killclimbz
Sep 20, 2005, 7:13 PM
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In reply to: Better yet, just build a natural anchor. There is always a way.
Fuck that, fire up the bosch and grid bolt that son of a bitch! :twisted:
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grk10vq
Sep 20, 2005, 7:51 PM
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In reply to: never bolted before
I would say before you bolt anything. KNOW and LEARN about what your doing. Its not like changing your oil (figuratively or literally) There are a lot of shitty bolts out there and nothing is more lovely than rolling up on a spinning anchor you can unscrew with your hand, sorrounded by bolt holes and oozing glue.
This is the age old RC advice....find someone who knows...read...blah blah. But this is important.
If you build it they will come.........anchors attract the masses of climbers. Give them something they can trust.
Also I wouldn't glue either. First time glue jobs are a mess. To do this properly you'll need some expertise.
I'm with price1869 on this one. Why not Go natural !!
Do your route, claim your route, and give it a big ole ( O ) [build]
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brianinslc
Sep 20, 2005, 8:27 PM
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In reply to: found a spot that needs bolts. never bolted before but figure this place is worth it. its wingate and we just want to put in rap anchors. so teh question hand or mechanized drill? glue in or just expansion fatties??
Mechanized will give you a much better (ie, more consistant) hole.
Step up to 1/2" by 4" at a minimum. Fixe Triplex are also nice (the longer ones, 12mm diamater by 75mm length).
Glue in's are nice, but, the fat stainless ones can be spendy. And, I think its easy to mess up a glue in, whilst a expansion can be retightened or properly torqued. I'd suggest to shy away from the capsule type glue, and go with the kind that mixes in a tip (and feeds out of two separate cartridges).
Also, some wingate can get quite a hard surface patina on it, while under that the rock can be soft. I think it can be easy to get a bell shaped hole that is bigger on the inside than out (which, can make setting certain types of expansion bolts more difficult, especially in the deeper holes). Fixe makes a stud with a double set of expansion cones and sleeves. I'd take a crowbar, be prepared to pull any bolts that didn't seat or snug up tight, and have a few of these double cone/sleeve type studs handy just in case. See #043 in the referenced website as an example.
http://www.fixeusa.com/wedge.htm
Should be using stainless, I suppose. Rustoleum makes a nice, flat camo paint that hides hangers well. If you end up with "plated" or zinc plated chain, rapides, hangers, or bolts, remember that you can't use regular oil based primer as a base layer when painting them. Get some primer that you can use on galvanized and/or aluminum surfaces (again, Rustoleum makes a latex based, water soluble primer that is super easy to use and clean up). Then, following a good day or two dry time, you can paint on the oil based top coat in camo color. Perfecto.
Vertically oriented anchors are also nice, and coming into vogue. Be one of the cool kids. Use a fixe top hanger #463 (see below):
http://www.fixeusa.com/hangers.htm
Add a removable rapide (stainless if you're pocket book is good) in 10mm or 3/8".
For the other anchor (position above, but, set to match at the bottom), use a standard hanger, rapide, with a fat Fixe rap ring (or 3, 5, 7 3/8" or 1/2" chain links).
Remember to position your anchors at the very least one full bolt length away from each other, preferably a bit further (say, 6" to 10" or so), depending on what the rock dictates.
Yada yada.
-Brian in SLC
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healyje
Sep 20, 2005, 9:05 PM
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In reply to: found a spot that needs bolts. never bolted before but figure this place is worth it. its wingate and we just want to put in rap anchors. so teh question hand or mechanized drill? glue in or just expansion fatties??
notyeti -
Ah, you're in SoCal, one would guess there is no shortage of old guys intimately familar with whatever rock you're considering bolting; consider finding one or two and talking with them before running out with your drill.
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slobmonster
Sep 20, 2005, 10:53 PM
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I should add (to the above sentiments) that there is a long tradition, in some desert circles, of climbing routes ground-up, and then down-aiding them at the end of the day...
There are many Bandito FAs that were put up in this style, and (certainly, perhaps unfortunately) retro-bolted.
If it's just you and your buds, this could be a consideration.
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wetyeti
Sep 21, 2005, 3:21 AM
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word, i like the idea of downaiding instead of bolting. thanks for all the info
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csgambill
Sep 21, 2005, 3:48 AM
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Wow, I really have to say, I'm impressed with the responses to this question. It's the first time (that I've seen) that anyone has responded intelligently to a first-time-bolter.
Cheers to all who responded! I learned some valuable things too.
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jimdavis
Sep 21, 2005, 1:38 PM
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I know it'd be better off for the rock if you can put some replaceable expansion fatties in rather than glue-in's which you'll need to drill out.
I'm not sure how solid your sandstone is, or if a glue in will offer you a much higher degree of safety in that type of rock...but if you can use expansion bolts, please do.
I was tempted to say "watch Vertical Limit to see how well bolts hold up in sandstone" but there were so many serious responces already, the troll didn't seem to fitting.
Cheers,
Jim
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chitlinsconcarne
Sep 21, 2005, 4:49 PM
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In reply to: Better yet, just build a natural anchor. There is always a way.
No, there is not.
Shut up and let more experienced people answer serious questions.
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climbingeek
Sep 21, 2005, 5:12 PM
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Over the past two years, I've placed several Fixe Triplex bolts. I am a HUGE fan of this piece of equipment--it has become my bolt-of-choice for southern California sandstone.
Its advantages are many; however, the most important advantages include the fact that it will still tighten in a hole that is slightly bell-shaped (larger diameter inside than at the surface) and it is easily removed for inspection or replacement. The primary disadvantage is that it requires a 12mm hole. Metric drill bits are a little harder to find.
Check out:
http://fixeusa.com/triplex.htm
One last note (as you probably already know): many climbing areas in SoCal have clearly established ethics in regard to bolting. Check with the locals before proceeding.
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wetyeti
Sep 22, 2005, 12:38 AM
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i guess i should point out that this spot is not in so cal. it is on some private property in southern utah. i have already spoken with the landowner he says "as long as you don't fuck up my property...have at it"
he's an old familty friend. i don't think you'll find wingate in cali, but you never know.
again thanks for all the beta. been climbing fora few years and figure i'l need to do this right.
thanks
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healyje
Sep 22, 2005, 2:08 AM
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Well, if you're set on it then at least you're doing all the right things checking here, checking with the land owner/manager, and mainly just wanting to do it right. You got a lot of good advice here and should be fine. I'd still encourage you to double check, get creative, and be sure it's really necessary.
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brianinslc
Sep 22, 2005, 2:30 PM
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In reply to: Over the past two years, I've placed several Fixe Triplex bolts. I am a HUGE fan of this piece of equipment--it has become my bolt-of-choice for southern California sandstone. Its advantages are many; however, the most important advantages include the fact that it will still tighten in a hole that is slightly bell-shaped (larger diameter inside than at the surface) and it is easily removed for inspection or replacement. The primary disadvantage is that it requires a 12mm hole. Metric drill bits are a little harder to find.
Another possible disadvantage is...if the Triplex becomes loose, the whole bolt can pop out of the hole. That's makes me pretty wary on using them in some situations.
-Brian in SLC
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boltdude
Sep 22, 2005, 3:19 PM
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One of the most common errors for first-time sandstone bolters who use 5-piece bolts is to not drill the hole deep enough. In granite or other hard rock you can drill the hole to a precise depth, clean the hole, no big deal. But in softer sandstone, even with a perfectly clean hole, the expansion cone will dig out some sand as it's being pounded in and fill up the end of the hole, often as much as 1/4-1/2" if you're using a 1/2" x 3.75" 5-piece (the "standard" if using 5-piece in softer sandstone). So if you go that route make sure the holes are extra-deep (and extra-clean). Also be ready for spinners as sand in the cone often binds up and makes it impossible to tighten the bolt. Some folks strongly prefer other bolt types because of this common problem.
I would not use any wedge type bolt in any softer rock, even the Fixe double-wedge bolts, as wedge bolts often won't tighten up correctly, and they can sometimes pull straight out in soft rock (even the grainy stuff at Joshua Tree).
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tradklime
Sep 22, 2005, 5:47 PM
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In reply to: Another possible disadvantage is...if the Triplex becomes loose, the whole bolt can pop out of the hole. That's makes me pretty wary on using them in some situations. -Brian in SLC
Do you see this as an issue if the hanger is placed on top of the lip of the sleeve? Fixe does warn of this possibility if the hanger is under the lip of the sleeve, as was their original instruction.
Regardless, the triplex does seem like the perfect option with it's large expansion and no cone to get gummed up with sand.
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sandstone
Sep 22, 2005, 6:38 PM
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If it's possible, find a loose chunk of rock from the crag, take it home, drill a few holes, and place a few bolts. You'll be practicing on the same type of stone as the crag, so you should be able to get a good feel for how it drills. Practicing this way is far better than drilling your first hole into the crag.
Leave the practice piece on your porch as a sport crag for mice.
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