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wolfman31
Sep 23, 2005, 4:22 PM
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I have a question regarding the tie in for a toprope setup at the gym. I gotta belay 4 kids and currently the grigris are tied to the ground and we tie them in one at a time on the other end. This becomes a pain in the ass after 2 hours and I'm wondering if there is a better method. My idea was to tie in a screwgate and then clip the kids in and out. I'm only a rec climber so I don't know all the safety rules, I would like to hear from someone experienced. Are there any issues with safety or pain from the beaner if you get in the crotch on a big fall ? If you were an instructor would you consider this a "legal" method for gym climbing.
Thanks
WM
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mcfoley
Sep 23, 2005, 4:33 PM
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#1 problem is that the GYM WON"T LET YOU!
At least a lot of gyms won't let you...
Probably the only way they would is if you used a steal biner like this
http://www.wildcatcommerce.com/...yesteelautoblock.jpg
Which would prevent the biner from orienting incorrectly. Only problem is that you would have to retie this biner if you switched ropes..
But my gut reactions is that there is no way a gym would let you get away with this setup, if they require climbers to tie their own knots.
There are some some gyms that have these biners already tied to all the TR's...
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skinnyclimber
Sep 23, 2005, 4:33 PM
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The gym I climb at does this. About 1/4 of the toprope routes have a grigri stuck to a special 'biner so that you can't steal it or remove the rope from it, and the other end has a locker tied onto it. It's pretty quick and easy, especially for those who don't know how to tie their own knot yet. Check this link. The little girl is belaying with the grigr and the other end of the rope has a similar locker tied on. You can just barely see the locker on the little boy's harness in the other pic. Sorry that's the best photo I can find.
http://www.climbstoneage.com/index.php?topic=Classes
Skinny
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mdude
Sep 23, 2005, 4:35 PM
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TIE IN.
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landgolier
Sep 23, 2005, 4:36 PM
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It's a bad idea for any number of reasons -- gate opening, cross-loading, two extra links in the chain, etc..., though you could probably do it for a lifetime in the gym and never have a problem. Still, I doubt the gym would let you do it. See if they'll let you tie in with a bowline, that's a bit faster. The other alternative is to tie a huge figure 8 (3-4 foot loop) and do a step-through girth hitch*, but again, depends on what the gym will let you do. Woe to the guy that has to untie that knot at the end, tho :D
*step-through girth hitch = run the loop down through the tie-ins, step through it, pass it over your head, bingo, you're girth hitched in.
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veganboyjosh
Sep 23, 2005, 4:38 PM
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In reply to: I have a question regarding the tie in for a toprope setup at the gym. I gotta belay 4 kids and currently the grigris are tied to the ground and we tie them in one at a time on the other end. This becomes a pain in the ass after 2 hours and I'm wondering if there is a better method. My idea was to tie in a screwgate and then clip the kids in and out. I'm only a rec climber so I don't know all the safety rules, I would like to hear from someone experienced. Are there any issues with safety or pain from the beaner if you get in the crotch on a big fall ? If you were an instructor would you consider this a "legal" method for gym climbing.
with the level of experience you're exuding, i'd suggest stick with tying them in. sure it's a pain, but it's part of climbing. this way, you're checking their knot(s) each and every time they begin a route.
would you rather tie them in each time, or have to explain to a parent why their kid is broken cos you thought tying them in was a pain?
also, it's a good time to go over with them the importance of tying them in. sort of the how and why the knot is important. plus a little patience will do most kids some good.
if they complain about tying in taking too long, they don't climb. i've taken groups of kids tr-ing in the gym, and my piece of mind/their safety is worth so much more to me than a few minutes spent tying a knot/checking it.
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ecjohnson
Sep 23, 2005, 4:40 PM
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I've sat around for a whole day belaying kids on routes, and we always made them tie in. At a very fundamental level, it makes them feel responsible for their own safety, which is really important for kids.
pm me if you want me to tell you more
Ethan
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superbum
Sep 23, 2005, 4:51 PM
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I don't know about the legalities but this is what I Do know...
It is generally a bad idea to clip the rope to the harness via a carabiner....why? Well, in the event of a sudden fall the carabiner could be in a bad orientation relative to the gear and become crossloaded. When a carabiner is crossloaded it is weaker. This is especially important to follow when simul-climbing and lead climbing, etc.
That said....I work as Ropes Course Director and we belay tons of kids everyday. We have a climbing wall too. It's very impractical for us to individually tie in every kid. The course is at a summer camp and we have time limits for every group. We tie a figure eight on a bight with a stopper knot and use a beefy Omega Pacific auto-locker clipped to the knot. We can now clip and unclip fast and easy.
During training I stress the need to belay fast and keep up with the kids as they climb in order to minimize slack that could wiggle and flip the biner around. We also telll the kids to slow down if they are going too fast. In the event that a person falls off of the wall or element with a crossloaded carabiner (it has never happened to me in Four years...) the TR anchor is a "shear reduction device" clipped to a pully on a slack wire cable so the system is very dynamic. Also the load limit on the minor axis (crossloaded) of the carabiner is 10kn...way more lbs of force than a kid can generate in such a dynamic system.
OK, back to you. My suggestion is to clear it with your employer for legal reasons and go for it. Be sure to get an auto-locker and try to get the highest possible KN rating for the minor axis. Belay fast to keep the rope taut. Also , if the kid is fat, big, huge, heavy or otherwise freakish, go ahead and tie him/her in like normal. Remember too that Toproping by nature has smaller fall forces than other types of climbing, but it still can generate lots of force. It's all in how you belay. Can you use an ATC instead of a Grigri?
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wolfman31
Sep 23, 2005, 5:58 PM
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>> We tie a figure eight on a bight with a stopper knot and use a beefy Omega Pacific auto-locker clipped to the knot. We can now clip and unclip fast and easy. <<
In English ?
The grigri has to stay fixed to the ground and I can't use an ATC. I just wanted to minimize the tie in and out process while keeping it safe. Like I said I'm new to RC and in it for the fun and exercise so I don't know any devices other than rope , grigri, screwgate etc.. I'm sure others have thought of this before but there has to be something out there designed to make this process easier while keeping it safe..
WM
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climbsomething
Sep 23, 2005, 6:39 PM
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In reply to: >> We tie a figure eight on a bight with a stopper knot and use a beefy Omega Pacific auto-locker clipped to the knot. We can now clip and unclip fast and easy. << In English ? The grigri has to stay fixed to the ground and I can't use an ATC. I just wanted to minimize the tie in and out process while keeping it safe. Like I said I'm new to RC and in it for the fun and exercise so I don't know any devices other than rope , grigri, screwgate etc.. I'm sure others have thought of this before but there has to be something out there designed to make this process easier while keeping it safe.. WM |
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wolfman31
Sep 23, 2005, 6:56 PM
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>>That was English. If something about that post stumps you, might I suggest not being responsible for a group of children in a climbing setting<<
I love these boards , there is one clown or clownette who likes to pick apart your post and suggest something as stupid as you just did. Please read the topic before you put your foot in your mouth. This post was regarding a "proposed" tie in method for a top rope, not asking for advice on my safety skills and what I should or shouldn't do with children. Believe me my safety skills were better 2 hours in on my first day then most people at the gym after several years. I might not know the lingo and the names of the knots but again that was not the topic for this post , to suggest that I don't belay kids because I don't understand the name of a tie in method is just plain stupid... I have more than the required skills for toproping and that is really all you should concern yourself with.
WM
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climbsomething
Sep 23, 2005, 7:09 PM
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Gee. You told me.
You don't know lingo or knots, but you know what you're talking about!
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cintune
Sep 23, 2005, 7:24 PM
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Wolfman, meet Alpha Female.... Alpha Female, meet Wolfman. It was bound to go downhill from that point....
Just tie the tots in the way it's supposed to be done or else don't do it, at least until you're more qualified to make that kind of judgement call entirely on your own. "Sorry, Mrs. Smith, some strangers on the Internet told me it would be okay" isn't going to sound very convincing after little Britney gets a broken ankle or worse.
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lambone
Sep 23, 2005, 7:34 PM
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Sometimes gyms will use the biner clip-in method while belaying for a group or kids party.
But ussually they don't want customers ussing that medthod because ultimately it can be more dangerous with one extra link in the chain.
Does it really take that much longer to do a 8 follow through vs. a 8 on a bight with a biner?
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climbinginchico
Sep 23, 2005, 7:34 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: >> We tie a figure eight on a bight with a stopper knot and use a beefy Omega Pacific auto-locker clipped to the knot. We can now clip and unclip fast and easy. << In English ? The grigri has to stay fixed to the ground and I can't use an ATC. I just wanted to minimize the tie in and out process while keeping it safe. Like I said I'm new to RC and in it for the fun and exercise so I don't know any devices other than rope , grigri, screwgate etc.. I'm sure others have thought of this before but there has to be something out there designed to make this process easier while keeping it safe.. WM That was English. If something about that post stumps you, might I suggest not being responsible for a group of children in a climbing setting?
Bingo.
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crimpandgo
Sep 23, 2005, 8:15 PM
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In reply to: >>That was English. If something about that post stumps you, might I suggest not being responsible for a group of children in a climbing setting<< I love these boards , there is one clown or clownette who likes to pick apart your post and suggest something as stupid as you just did. Please read the topic before you put your foot in your mouth. This post was regarding a "proposed" tie in method for a top rope, not asking for advice on my safety skills and what I should or shouldn't do with children. Believe me my safety skills were better 2 hours in on my first day then most people at the gym after several years. I might not know the lingo and the names of the knots but again that was not the topic for this post , to suggest that I don't belay kids because I don't understand the name of a tie in method is just plain stupid... I have more than the required skills for toproping and that is really all you should concern yourself with. WM
You don't need to know a bunch of climbing lingo and knots to be safe at the gym........... AS LONG AS YOU STICK TO THE BASICS THAT THE GYM TAUGHT YOU.
Yes, there are simpler ways, but most gyms won't let you do for the exact reason you have highlighted here. You don't know the other techniques nor understand them to use them safely. Doesn't mean your not capable, it just means the gym can't assume the liability.
I think all this was already said, but I thought I would say it again in a different light.
Alpha woman actually said it in fewer words... and better. If you don't know the lingo, it should probably be a clue you may not want to attempt it....especially when somebody's kid is on the other end. Now, if its you on the other end, I guess its your own ass and you can make your own decision.
Be safe out there :)
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lambone
Sep 23, 2005, 8:16 PM
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In reply to: I might not know the lingo and the names of the knots but again that was not the topic for this post , to suggest that I don't belay kids because I don't understand the name of a tie in method is just plain stupid... I have more than the required skills for toproping
lingo and the names of the basic tie in knots are climbing 101. to not know these suggests that you may not be profecient in belaying and basic rope skills. that was the point, and I tend to agree.
If you learned in the gym, and the instructors did not teach you these basics, then you did not get your moneys worth.
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watertorocks
Sep 23, 2005, 8:21 PM
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In reply to: This post was regarding a "proposed" tie in method for a top rope, not asking for advice on my safety skills and what I should or shouldn't do with children. Believe me my safety skills were better 2 hours in on my first day then most people at the gym after several years.
Well, I think in your original post you stated that "I don't know all the safety rules..." So, if you don't know the safety rules, then how the heck do you know your skills were better in two hours than most people after two years!
You came here asking advice from experienced climbers and it seems like the resounding answer is as follows:
- Tying in is much safer (Safety rule number whatever)
Ditch the "I'm so awesome" ego and learn a little humility. The safety of other peoples' children is at stake. Don't mess with the trust they put in you to deliver their children back to them in the same condition they delivered them to you.
Trust me here - I deal with children every day of my life as a teacher and camp counselor - when they look at what you do they are learning what to do. It's irresponsible to say to them that "tying in is the right way to do this, but I'm going to do something different". Chances are that these kids will never get hurt clipping in like you propose, but one will undoubtedly get hurt when they buy their own gear and do as you taught.
SMARTEN UP!!!!
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crimpandgo
Sep 23, 2005, 8:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I might not know the lingo and the names of the knots but again that was not the topic for this post , to suggest that I don't belay kids because I don't understand the name of a tie in method is just plain stupid... I have more than the required skills for toproping lingo and the names of the basic tie in knots are climbing 101. to not know these suggests that you may not be profecient in belaying and basic rope skills. that was the point, and I tend to agree. If you learned in the gym, and the instructors did not teach you these basics, then you did not get your moneys worth.
I have been to 5 different gyms and I have never been taught how to doa figure 8 on a bight in the gym.
there are two "climbing 101" courses maybe. gym climbing 101 and outdoor climbing 101.
Most of us would agree that gym climbing 101 is a subset of outdoor climbing 101.
Gyms keep it as simple as possible to the new folks and very rarely let you venture outside their methods due to liability
This point is really moot because what the OP is asking, the gym likely won't let you anyway. What worries me is the OPs attitude. Will he do it anyway because he thinks he can, then get someone hurt..
The gyms have rules for a reason. Please follow them.
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watertorocks
Sep 23, 2005, 8:41 PM
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Any gym I've been to has had a safety test; tie in with a figure 8, setup a passive belay device, and catch an unannounced fall. Miss any one = no climbing except for bouldering. They wouldn't TEACH how to tie-in for safety issues unless you were in a class.
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lambone
Sep 23, 2005, 9:19 PM
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there is a gym in my area (to remain unammed) that actually leaves figure eights on a bight in the toprope %100 of the time and has people clip in with a locker on every time.
so, as a result what I have been seeing alot of at my gym during belay tests iare folks that know how to belay well enough, but have no idea how to tie a figure eight knot. beacuse they learned at the other gym where they never have to tie a knot.
this is just wrong IMHO, fo many reasons.
I don't know how anyone could argue that using a biner is safer. That'd be like saying that NOT wearing your seatbelt is safer. just doesn't make sense.
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superbum
Sep 23, 2005, 9:28 PM
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OK, wolfman....
I don't often do this, but here I am again trying to answer your post seriously...it's hard, let me tell you. Not because your question is stupid, but well, because serious answers are no fun to write/read.
Omega Pacific is a brand.
An Autolocker is a type of locking carabiner that you don't have to screw to lock. It has a spring that rotates a sleeve over the gate preventing openage. Go to the gear page on this site and find one.
A figure eight on a bite is just like a figure eight follow through, but without the harness. You can tie it the same way, or take a doubled piece of rope (close to the bend) and just tie the first half of the follow through. You can go here: http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips.htm and get great diagrams, drawings, and info on all sortsa knots.
As, far as lingo goes, well, it's hard to explain something, let alone have you understand it properly if we arent speaking the same "language."
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superbum
Sep 23, 2005, 9:38 PM
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In reply to: I don't know how anyone could argue that using a biner is safer. That'd be like saying that NOT wearing your seatbelt is safer. just doesn't make sense.
Of course you are right, tying in is always safer, but there are circumstances where using a biner to link harness and rope is safe enough. Like i said in my original response earlier, because of a built-in dynamic belay anchor on my ropes course, the fall forces generated are so low that this method (with attentive and correct belaying) becomes safe.
You are also right in saying that wearing a seatbelt is always safer. It took me weeks to convince my girlfriend of this fact. According to her, seatbelts could trap you in a rolling accident making it impossible to get out...especially dangerous when you crash into water. I make her wear it though unless we are driving next to a river. :roll:
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lambone
Sep 23, 2005, 10:11 PM
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sure. I gues a one way to make it even safer (for any nOObs reading this) use two lockers and oppose them, bombproof.
Once case when I use a locker to attach myself to the rope instead of a knot is loweing off a sport climb (which i do rarely since I ussually rap to save wear on the anchor).
cheers
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saxfiend
Sep 23, 2005, 10:43 PM
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In reply to: I love these boards , there is one clown or clownette who likes to pick apart your post and suggest something as stupid as you just did. Please read the topic before you put your foot in your mouth.
Meantime, if you're too damn lazy to tie the kids in every time, get somebody else to work with them who's more willing to set a good example.
JL
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