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rwilliam
Sep 22, 2005, 10:59 PM
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I am a non-climber but I could use some help with a problem. I am a marine biologist grad student and I need to find a way to mount a camera system over the side of a sheer, marine rock face (~12 ft high) to monitor some organisms. We don't want to damage the rock face by drilling holes and pouring cement but the anchor points need to be secure enough to deal with wave action. Therefore, we want to try using climbing equipment, namely cams, to do the job. We looked in to buying some used ones on e-bay but they're all too pricey and claim to be in "like new" condition which is unnecessary for our purposes. Does anyone know how, where, or if we can get some "retired" cams that are very cheap and functional but no longer safe for use in climbing? Thank you for your attention and any assistance you can give.
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ubotch
Sep 22, 2005, 11:12 PM
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Unfortunately I don't know of a place to get cheap, retired cams. There are however some cams that are cheaper than others. I don't know how much the used ones that you were looking at were but you can buy new Rock Empire cams for about $30 a piece. Maybe thats still too pricey for you but just thought I would suggest it. Those cams can be found at www.acmeclimbing.com.
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epic_ed
Sep 22, 2005, 11:16 PM
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eBay really is your best bet. Other than that, contact one of the cam manufacturers directly. They might have some cams to donate.
Ed
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g-funk
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Sep 22, 2005, 11:20 PM
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Maybe you already understand this, but if the rock face is "sheer" then cams aren't going to do you any good. They need to be placed in a crack system of some kind.
Having said that, I would contact a manufacturer and see if they would give out some cams that have been used for stress testing and are no longer any good. My guess is that they won't though just for liability purposes.
Good luck! Sounds interesting.
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cubbiebear
Sep 22, 2005, 11:23 PM
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what size crack are you trying to build your anchor on? have you considered using passive protection like nuts/hexes? i know you stated you did not climb so i'm not sure if you are aware of what they are. they are non-moving protection pieces and are far cheaper than cams. don't know if they'll work for your situation but if you clarify/specify your needs/situation people here will probably have a better idea of how they can help.
just a thought
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trenchdigger
Sep 22, 2005, 11:42 PM
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If you are at a university with an engineering program, this sounds like a decent candidate for a project for some engineering students.
The first thing you will need is a thorough assessment of what you're dealing with. What is the rock down there like? What are the specifications of the camera, specifically weight, size, and shape? What kind of ocean currents/swell action could you encounter in this location? How will you be installing this setup?
Cams will not likely suit your purpose. They resist motion in a direction of pull on one axis from the cam, but can easily twist and move if the direction of pull changes. You'll have a hard time rigging a perfectly stationary camera holding system with only cams attaching your rig to the rock.
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rwilliam
Sep 23, 2005, 12:20 AM
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Thanks for all of your responses, I really appreciate it. Figuring out how to do this kind of thing is always the most fun and the most challenging part of experimental design so I am very thankful for your input. Yes. "sheer" was the wrong term. I apologise. It is more like a "shelf" (not sure if that's the right term either but I mean it descriptively, rather than technically) of rock that sticks up about 7-12 feet from the beach and is about 10-15 feet wide. They look like miniature cliffs. The rocks are made out of compressed, coarse sand (coquina rock). Wave action is constantly eroding the rocks so they are jagged, cracked, and even have big holes in some places that the waves spray up through. Quite beautiful. Quite uncomfortable to walk on. Anyway, there are lots of cracks of all shapes and sizes there to anchor something in. We want to have the attachment point at the top and hang the camera over the side with a J shaped rigid support system (we made that part out of PVC). So, the camera will be set in the J and will be braced against the rock with some kind of "feet" to keep it from getting smashed to bits. Wave action will alternately push the rig into and suck it back away from the rock face and the point(s) of attachment at the top will be getting rocked back and forth with it. We initially looked into using nuts and hexes but decided against it because we thought the back and forth rocking from wave action might work them free. However, I could be totally wrong about that.
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equal_1
Sep 23, 2005, 12:47 AM
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i have a feeling with the waves and the rigging that you are proposing, you will have to anchor this (bad boy )camera from at least 3 different angles. with that said there should be force to resist the anchors so that they all keep tension on the webbing or cable you decide to use for stabilizers.
with the layout of what you have described and the setup you have you should be able to use four pieces of dynamic rope connected to four hexes or tri-cams equally spit as best you can in a 360 degree area of the camera housing ,,, and cinch it down good ... waves can move mountains. anyway just a thought ...good luck....
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ryanb
Sep 23, 2005, 12:57 AM
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I would be somewhat woried about the salt water's effect on the moveing parts of the cams...it seems like the springs and axels would get gumbed up quickley greatly reducing the functionality of the cams. Particularly as cam lobes are made from untreated aluminum which will react very strongly to salt water at junctions with other metals weakening the piece and contaminating the local environ. (Do some google searching about aluminum boat building as this is going to be a problem even with passive gear and you'll probably want to cover points where aluminum touches steal with epoxy)
Nuts and hexes should be fine provided you rig them so that they are allways under tension...i.e mount the camera on some sort of tripod and then use the nuts to hold this tightley against the wall eliminating the majority of the movement. (Its movement not variation in force that works climbing gear free.) Another opption would be to place nuts in opposition (so they allways pull against one and other). Any good climbing book will show you how to do this.
Maybe you're university has a climbing club that could be gotten involved?
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u_will_die
Sep 23, 2005, 3:03 AM
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forget the whale watching beluga boy , pull your skirt up and get on the sharp end and use those cams for what they were made for ... CRANKING THE GNAR !!!!
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ajkclay
Sep 23, 2005, 6:01 AM
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Hi, from the sounds of things cams won't be what you want, there's a higher chance that wave action will dislodge them unless you can get ones that are going to be very overcammed.
I think stoppers would be best, and as mentioned above you'll probably need three directions of pull. Quite honestly, bolts may be the best answer.
I think that wave action will just mean that you're wasting a lot of time stuffing around with options that will keep failing. It has all the makings of being very complex, very expensive, and useless.
Once the experiment is done you can probably remove the bolts and plug the holes with an epoxy mixture containing the powder left from drilling and hide them reasonably well.
Honestly, climbing gear is not likely to be useful... BTW if you do use bolts and leave them in, it will make repeating the experiment easier in the future.
Cheers,
Adam
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davidji
Sep 26, 2005, 3:15 AM
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I too would be inclined to place bolts. However I have a set of old cams that I'd sell for not too much $$. I still climb on them occasionally, but they're older than most climbers like and I haven't posted them for sale yet. There are enough cams in my set (15) to give you plenty of redundancy.
If you might be interested, I can post more details.
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iltripp
Sep 26, 2005, 4:34 AM
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In reply to: I too would be inclined to place bolts. However I have a set of old cams that I'd sell for not too much $$. I still climb on them occasionally, but they're older than most climbers like and I haven't posted them for sale yet. There are enough cams in my set (15) to give you plenty of redundancy. If you might be interested, I can post more details.
Still trying to sell those old friends, david?
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lenexa
Sep 26, 2005, 5:02 AM
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Maybe if you posted your exact location someone from this site would realize how close you are and help out. If not, try to just find a climber who "trad climbs" or climbs traditionally to come out. He/she could look at the cracks place his/her gear and either loan it or tell you exactly which size nuts to buy at the shop. If you're really into saving money you could use what climbing "nuts" used to be: just buy some cord and sling machine or mechanical nuts through the sling. Really without a climbers life on the line, you just need to put something (wood, metal, plastic, bone, ipod, trophies, etc) into the rock and thread it.
You could also try suction cups, I heard those work :)
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davidji
Sep 26, 2005, 5:47 AM
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In reply to: Still trying to sell those old friends, david?
I just repaired 3 of my Tech Friends, plus I bought various C4s & DMMs on sale this year, so I have less use for 'em.
We used one or two of the old ones this Summer didn't we?
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iltripp
Sep 26, 2005, 5:17 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Still trying to sell those old friends, david? Not trying very hard. Haven't posted description & price in the sale forums, and haven't put 'em on Ebay. Don't really want to deal with it. I just repaired 3 of my Tech Friends, plus I bought various C4s & DMMs on sale this year, so I have less use for 'em. We used one or two of the old ones this Summer didn't we?
I think we just used the big one when we went to the Leap... The second time we went out, you had the new DMM, so we didn't bother.
I took advanatage of the DMM sale also and doubled up one some of my mid-size cams. I wish I had been quicker and gotten one of the big DMMs before they sold out.
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thrmaln
Sep 26, 2005, 5:50 PM
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Hey RWilliam,
Where is this experiment taking place? If it is within a reasonable radius of Southern California, I may be able to lend a hand. I am about 45 minutes from ventura and malibu area beaches.
Best regards,
Marc Webster
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rwilliam
Sep 29, 2005, 3:41 AM
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Thanks for all of your input. It's been helpful and we're using it all to try and figure this out before we commit to anything that isn't going to work.
To Davidji: After all of these suggestions, we've decided to rethink things a bit. I may still want those cams though if you haven't already posted them for sale. I will try to get back to you about that by tomorrow afternoon if the offer is still good.
To thrmaln: Thank you very much for your offer but, unfortunately, we're nowhere near California. Amazingly enough the study site is in Florida. There is an area on the East Coast of the peninsula between West Palm and Stuart where there are several beaches with rocky outcrops. They actually look remarkably like the few California beaches I have seen. Go Figure.
Thanks again everyone!
--Rebecca
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lewisiarediviva
Sep 29, 2005, 3:52 AM
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If you are looking at ebay, and they say "like new," who cares. What you want are cams. cheap. Your goal is to find cheap cams.
Don't look into how used they are, rather compare prices. If you are looking for cams for non-climbing purposes, then don't look at the advertising that focuses on climbers. Just compare the price with new gear. Most people selling gear will say "like new" in order to sell it because they think climbers are the only people buying, and climbers want new.
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