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mikec
Sep 27, 2005, 2:44 PM
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A new route going up in the area is approximately 160' long and will have about 12 to 14 bolts. See there is a section of the route with about a twenty foot crack. So I was just wondering how you all feel about mixed gear and bolted routes. Do I put an extra couple bolts to remove the hassle of bringing two or three pieces of gear for the mostly bolted route? Do I stick with the idea that there is no need to place a bolt where there is a perfectly good protectable crack? I would just like to get your opinion.
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j_ung
Sep 27, 2005, 2:54 PM
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I suppose it depends on the local ethic, but I for one love mixed lines. I think they add a little flavor to what might otherwise be same-ol', same-ol'.
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drrock
Sep 27, 2005, 3:03 PM
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asandh
Sep 27, 2005, 3:04 PM
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:)
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drrock
Sep 27, 2005, 3:04 PM
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asandh
Sep 27, 2005, 3:06 PM
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mikec wrote:In reply to: See there is a section of the route with about a twenty foot crack. So I was just wondering how you all feel about mixed gear and bolted routes. Do I put an extra couple bolts to remove the hassle of bringing two or three pieces of gear for the mostly bolted route? Here we go again, worrying about those weak lazy sport climbers having to carry an extra few ounces of gear and potentially hurting themselves, or worse yet - failing to send - because of the extra weight. I agree with jung ... respect the rock and keep it interesting.
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realdeal39
Sep 27, 2005, 3:11 PM
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I agree with everyone else. Make em carry a few peices of pro and make em run it out if their worried about extra weight.
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caughtinside
Sep 27, 2005, 3:16 PM
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Well, an issue with a mixed route is that people will need a topo with gear beta for the route. If the area as a whole contains both sport and trad routes, then it's not a big deal. But if its a predominantly sport area, the line won't get done much just because most folks won't pack in those extra pieces. It's not just lazyness, you have to look at the guide to get the gear beta. I don't know about you guys, but I don't do that on the way to a sport crag. If it's at a sport crag, I'd bolt it. If it's at a crag with a good mix of trad routes, or all trad routes, I wouldn't.
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billcoe_
Sep 27, 2005, 3:17 PM
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I'm an old trad guy, and I love that ethic. But I think you left out some info. If this is a relatively easy route, which will lure beginners in with what appears to be a line of shiney bolts: thats 1 issue. If the crack is off the deck and easy to spot, you'll know to bring a piece or 3. If the beginer who got lured in, finds him self looking at a ground fall from 50 feet up because the crack isn't really visible from the ground - thats another issue. If not having that key piece, and missing the crux at the top of the crack will land you in the dirt as a death fall, put in the bolt. Otherwise, I say let people bring the pieces, sounds like theres plenty of bolts already.
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wjca
Sep 27, 2005, 3:30 PM
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When you stencile the name of the route at the bottom, you could just write on there with a sharpie (or one of those glittery paint pens, they're fancier) the type of gear they'll need. This will clear it up for all.
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dingus
Sep 27, 2005, 3:35 PM
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Which answer are you hoping 'wins?' DMT
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ambler
Sep 27, 2005, 3:52 PM
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If the rock supports a nice mixed climb, that's what it should be. I don't agree that even in a mostly-sport area, all routes should be dumbed down for leaders with no judgment, who don't make the effort to read either the rock or a guidebook.
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caughtinside
Sep 27, 2005, 4:14 PM
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Yeah, but it makes you reliant on the guidebook. You can't just walk up and climb the thing w/o either running it out or carrying an unnecessary pile of gear. Plus, what's so cool about a climb with 12 bolts and 2 gear placements?
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billcoe_
Sep 27, 2005, 4:19 PM
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In reply to: Yeah, but it makes you reliant on the guidebook. You can't just walk up and climb the thing w/o either running it out or carrying an unnecessary pile of gear. Plus, what's so cool about a climb with 12 bolts and 2 gear placements?
In reply to: If the rock supports a nice mixed climb, that's what it should be. I don't agree that even in a mostly-sport area, all routes should be dumbed down for leaders with no judgment, who don't make the effort to read either the rock or a guidebook. I would normally agree, but we don't know if there ever will be a guide to this area or this route. We don't know a lot of things. A line of bright obvious shiny bolts on an easy line which leads to a crux crack with a deathfall would be too much for me. Having seen multiple people die right in front of me, is not something I like to see while I'm climbing. Use your judgment Paul C, I would say no bolts 99 percent of the time, but have some concerns. I radically disagree with caughtinside. As long as nobody is being caught unawares that they are about to die, having a couple of placements in the middle of a route can make it interesting, especially for a beginning leader. The "Whats so cool" argument is particularly weak. What so cool about a line of bolts? See ? - Pffftssst. Good luck Paul Bill
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asandh
Sep 27, 2005, 4:21 PM
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:)
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ambler
Sep 27, 2005, 4:23 PM
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In reply to: Yeah, but it makes you reliant on the guidebook. And/or, on your judgment. All climbs used to be like that; should we have areas where none are allowed?
In reply to: You can't just walk up and climb the thing w/o either running it out or carrying an unnecessary pile of gear. No, you can't climb it w/o either running it out or bringing the necessary gear. Just like real climbs.
In reply to: Plus, what's so cool about a climb with 12 bolts and 2 gear placements? So some people wouldn't like having to place any of their own gear. Others would. What's wrong with that?
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caughtinside
Sep 27, 2005, 4:43 PM
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In reply to: caughtinsside wrote: In reply to: Yeah, but it makes you reliant on the guidebook. You can't just walk up and climb the thing w/o either running it out or carrying an unnecessary pile of gear. NO ... it makes you reliant on yourself. Remember the standard disclaimer: climbing is a dangerous activity that could get you seriously injured or killed. Take a little responsibility for your OWN life and carry that extra 1 lb of gear wherever you climb. :) .... there's always the gym .... I don't necessarily disagree with you. It's hard to say what to do just based on the original post, at least for me. But you develop routes, and just yesterday someone was questioning the bolting ethic at el cajon. Bolts next to cracks. What's up with that? I'd be interested to hear your rationale. For me, if a line is going to be 12 bolts and one cam placement, I consider that contrived. You've bolted greater than 90% of the line. Preserving a single placement in the name of some arbitrary rock ethics? But, it also depends on which crag you're at...
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mikec
Sep 27, 2005, 4:50 PM
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Well that leaves me with the same two arguments that I came up with. The area really doesn't have a lot of cracks. There are a few. There really is no guide book right now. The only reason I lean toward placing a bolt near the crack is because it will be a fairly easy line (5.10C maybe) and I would like it to be climbed by new climbers without a cam or two. On the other hand there are not all that many routes here yet (40 maybe). I do not want to set a precedence that it is OK to place a bolt instead of placing gear. What to do? Local ethics. Not really enough locals to have local ethics.
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caughtinside
Sep 27, 2005, 4:58 PM
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In reply to: What to do? Local ethics. Not really enough locals to have local ethics. What to do? You've got the best possible scenario! YOU are the local, and you and your buds get to define the local ethic.
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jt512
Sep 27, 2005, 5:06 PM
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In reply to: A new route going up in the area is approximately 160' long and will have about 12 to 14 bolts. See there is a section of the route with about a twenty foot crack. So I was just wondering how you all feel about mixed gear and bolted routes. Do I put an extra couple bolts to remove the hassle of bringing two or three pieces of gear for the mostly bolted route? Do I stick with the idea that there is no need to place a bolt where there is a perfectly good protectable crack? What will be your first ascent style? Are you going to bolt it on the first ascent lead? If so, then it's a trad route, and I doubt that if you lead it in this style that you'll bolt the crack. You have the option of deciding whether to go back and add convenience bolts to the crack. If you anticipate that climbers will expect that the route will be bolted (ie, it's at a sport crag, where all the other routes are bolted), then you should consider retro-bolting the crack. However, you have earned the right to expect future climbers to lead the route in the style that you FA'ed it. On the other hand, if you plan to rap-bolt the route, then you might as well bolt the crack, too. If you don't bolt the crack, then you have neither a trad route, since you rap bolted it (at best, you have a trad route put up in horrible style), nor a sport route, since you are forcing climbers to place gear. Climbing is not about placing gear for the sake of placing gear. On a trad climb, the FAist leads the route in a bold style, placing gear as he needs it. He thus earns the right to expect future climbers to climb the route in a similar style. On a sport route, the goal of the FAist is to develop a route with optimal protection, so that future climbers can essentially forget about pro and focus on the moves themselves. The FAist places the bolts on rappel, so that he can place the bolts in optimal position, rather than only where he can gain a stance. Rap bolting a route, but "leaving a couple of gear placements," is pointless. Future climbers will view the route either as a sissy-shit trad climb or as an inconvenient sport climb. You don't want that to be your legacy. Instead, take a stance on whether you want to put up a trad climb or a sport climb, and then commit 100% to that style. -Jay
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boltdude
Sep 27, 2005, 5:16 PM
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Depends on the situation. 20' of 5.7 hands right off the deck on a 160' 5.11 face? 20' of perfect nut placements in an area where most people have some gear? 20' of good crack in a crack that is obvious from the ground as is the lack of bolts near it? Those are "nope don't bolt". BUT - 20' of hard 5-6" offwidth? 20' of tricky RP placements? 20' of good crack but in a sport area where very few people bring pro and many people would be astonished to get on the route and run out of bolts? Different story there...but even there, since it sounds like this is a new area and you get to define the ethics with short crack sections, it's up to you. One time I did bolt a section almost exactly like you describe - in that case 20' of 5.9 fist crack which gives access to a 210' 5.10b sport route (2-pitch) at a mostly sport area (Owens River Gorge). If the area is going to be mostly sport and you think it will exclude a bunch of people on a good route, might as well add the bolts.
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jt512
Sep 27, 2005, 5:17 PM
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In reply to: The only reason I lean toward placing a bolt near the crack is because it will be a fairly easy line (5.10C maybe) and I would like it to be climbed by new climbers without a cam or two. OK, then what you are saying is that you want to develop a sport route. Then you should bolt the crack.
In reply to: On the other hand there are not all that many routes here yet (40 maybe). I do not want to set a precedence that it is OK to place a bolt instead of placing gear. OK, then what you are saying is that it is ok for you to bolt cracks in your area, but not other climbers, which is a contradiction. If you think it is ok to bolt the crack, then I don't see why you would object to others doing so. -Jay
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cfnubbler
Sep 27, 2005, 5:37 PM
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I enjoy routes that are consistent with the features offered by the rock. This is true of sport routes, gear routes, and everything in between. I therefore find bolts next to protectable cracks offensive. When putting up new routes, my personal ethic is not to drill near protectable cracks. Ever. Period. I know it's an old-school ethic, but whether on lead or on rap, I've never done so. I have yet to hear a convincing argument for bolts near protectable cracks, in this thread or elsewhere. Convenience? Bullsh$t. Safety? Take up golf. I'm not close-minded about this. If somebody can present a compelling argument in favor of bolting naturally protectable sections of mixed routes, I'd be very interested. But so far nobody has. -Nubbler
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double
Sep 27, 2005, 5:41 PM
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In reply to: When you stencile the name of the route at the bottom, you could just write on there with a sharpie (or one of those glittery paint pens, they're fancier) the type of gear they'll need. This will clear it up for all. wtf?
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asandh
Sep 27, 2005, 5:42 PM
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:)
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