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beyond_gravity
Aug 7, 2002, 3:35 AM
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1: I have seen Scout masters toproping scouts through a pulley. Is this common practice?
Not in Canada it aint. Too many insurance issues. Infact, anyone in Scouts Canada can not have the individuals sign a waver, the company MUST have a legal agreement with Scouts Canada. There is no way the group commity would ever approve a rock climbing activity without certified rock guides.
2: Do any of you own a mount me hat?
Of course!
Sheesh!
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mcsosar3456
Aug 7, 2002, 4:24 AM
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another eagle scout here. not really too proud to be associated with the program. a bit too conservative for me. i think the program is great if they could only get rid of their homophobic policies. i think the scouts need more of an emphasis on camping, climbing, and other outdoor activities (as my troop was)and less on the uniform and militaristic procedures.
this topic bugs me a lot and i could go on forever. i have thought about sending back my eagle badge in protest.
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bootlegger
Aug 2, 2005, 12:08 AM
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I'm the father of an Eagle Scout, assistant Scoutmaster, OA member and Climbing Instructor. It's an incredible organization and we've got a great program here - we camp once a month year-round, backpack, climb, cave, whitewater raft, been to Philmont, etc. I've watched the positive impact this program has had on my son as he has grown from a little boy joining Cub Scouts to a fine young man with good judgement and a tremendous sense of responsibility, service and self-confidence. I depend on him in the backcountry because of the skills he learned in Scouting. And I get a huge kick out of helping other kids in the troop progress on their way to Eagle. A big thank you to all associated with this program - you're truly "giving back" to the next generation!
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waynew
Aug 2, 2005, 4:13 PM
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Agreeing with bootlegger in all respects. It's a joy to watch these young men that you've known for 10 years+ learning how to thrive in the wilderness and earning their Eagle and standing tall in their community and heading for college. Working with these lads is an honor and a privilege!
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sandstone
Aug 2, 2005, 5:45 PM
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In reply to: that all looks good....but what about reality? I've seen plenty of boy scout groups down at the crags, and have seen them doing some pretty crazy things. some of the anchors they set looked like a death trap, and one group was belaying from the top ( yes thats ok) and had someone stationed at the bottom with a walkie talkie telling the belayer to take (10 ft of slack!). that same group was also THROWING helmets and harnesses tied to a rope over the edge of the cliff to the next climber....
Reality? The reality is that within any large organization (scouts, churches, schools, climbers, whatever) you're going to find variations. Some groups are going to be quite competent, and others are going to be be less so. The reality is that you can't make sweeping generalizations about a large organization based on a few local observations. Scouting has its problems for sure, but in the big picture it's a good program.
Keep in mind that scouting is primarily a volunteer organization. If you see a scout group at a crag it's because a few adults have volunteered their time for the benefit of the youth. They're out there helping kids challenge themselves and find their way in life.
If you don't like what you see scouts doing at your local crags, why don't you volunteer to help them?
That's what I've done, and I'll tell you it's challenging to manage a group of kids at a crag. It's certainly a lot harder than sitting at a keyboard posting criticism about those who do it.
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tennesseeclimber
Aug 2, 2005, 6:20 PM
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I am a eagle scout and if it wasn't for scouting i would never had gotten into the greatest sport in the world. and you have to respect eagle scouts because the world respects them. if a eagle scout is entering the military they will go in with a higher rank then just street kids.
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verticalclimb
Aug 2, 2005, 6:38 PM
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In reply to: Reality? The reality is that within any large organization (scouts, churches, schools, climbers, whatever) you're going to find variations. Some groups are going to be quite competent, and others are going to be be less so. The reality is that you can't make sweeping generalizations about a large organization based on a few local observations. Scouting has its problems for sure, but in the big picture it's a good program. Keep in mind that scouting is primarily a volunteer organization. If you see a scout group at a crag it's because a few adults have volunteered their time for the benefit of the youth. They're out there helping kids challenge themselves and find their way in life. If you don't like what you see scouts doing at your local crags, why don't you volunteer to help them? That's what I've done, and I'll tell you it's challenging to manage a group of kids at a crag. It's certainly a lot harder than sitting at a keyboard posting criticism about those who do it.
Nice comment sandstone!!!!
From a former Scoutmaster, Varsity Coach, and scout, I appreciate anyone who can recognize the general trend of success over a few variabilities in the program. I have been one of those at the crag with 15 to 20 teenagers, some who have respect for most things, some who do not. We volunteer to help because we care and hope that we can instill more respect into these individuals than they would have had in a life without scouting. I can name 10 individuals who I have personal knowledge would probably have ended up in jail, or worse, had the scouting program not intervened in their lives. But unfortunately, they are the same 10 who I would not be surprised to find pitching rocks off of cliffs!
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janderson4010
Sep 29, 2005, 5:02 AM
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I can't speak for the Utah scouts but I know the Idaho variety are pretty crazy too. When we went to craters of the moon the park rangers about kicked us out. I am not involved anymore but when the scouts come to crags around here the general rule is to watch out. Not to long ago a scout fell 30 feet while free soloing at one of the areas I go to, luckily there were climbers there that were also EMTs, he sustained massive head injuries but he was okay in the end. I do agree that the people who think they are unsafe should go and help them, I might do that myself.
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chris24110
Sep 29, 2005, 5:23 AM
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In reply to: Boy Scouts get torn up when it comes to a reputation. Most say they're a bunch of geeks that meet together to have geek parties.
A lot of people were under that mindset until we got the chance to answer "What'd you do this weekend" with "Drove to Alabama and spent the day climbing, then went through a case and a half that evening sitting around a fire playing bongos and passing guitars."
Then people just say "wait, they spend their time in ways much cooler than i do" and all of a sudden the whole football team's girlfriends are coming climbing with you.
Beautiful Life
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firstmatetickles
Sep 29, 2005, 7:39 AM
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I'm an eagle scout and I teach boy scouts how to rock climb about once a week. Some troops are crazy but even they have their moments that impress. There are also totally cool troops that just chill out and work hard and well. In any event it's awesome that they have a way to experience the sport. Scouting may bring a variety of people to the table and you'll see every type of person, but it is not a bad thing at all. If a little turd gets involved in scouting, they will leave less of a little turd. I definitely believe that the program is a good thing and the leaders who take a responsible active role in the program should be patted on the back.
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walrus
Sep 29, 2005, 9:41 AM
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I just wanted to add another Eagle Scout to the pot. I am happy to have had those experiances.
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oldrnotboldr
Sep 29, 2005, 1:30 PM
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My son was in two different scout troops in two different cities. Most of the outdoor skills his troops learned was pretty cursory, covering enough to get someone in trouble in the wilderness. At the annual scout camp each summer they teach basic climbing skills. It was pretty scary watching their instructors try to teach things (such as belaying, spotting) they themselves had no clue in. For spotting they had two scouts ready to catch the climber if they fell. I pulled my son out and taught him myself. These guys had no clue what they were teaching was dangerous and were not open to suggestions. Another thing they tried to teach was compass and gps navigation. Fortunately their lost scouts and their instructor cam out on a road two miles from camp. Also, their swimming test for the deep water swimming was again too cursory and did not include such basic things as treading water and floating. When they taught canoeing, their paddle strokes and maneuvering skills were wrong, canoes overloaded, etc. They did require the kids to wear pfds. A Kmart model but they were enough to keep a kid above water.
Things he learned that were good: team work, consideration, some geographical data, and other humanity based topics.
So, all in all, I'm not totally convinced its a good program.
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arrow
Sep 29, 2005, 2:16 PM
Post #38 of 144
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Hey oldrnotboldr your son would probably be better off playing with his x-box listening to his old man knock the system. Why don't you get off your ass and become a volunteer if you know more than the current leaders who are also volunteers by the way. Geez some people just don't get it!!!!
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mattgosselin
Sep 29, 2005, 3:41 PM
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hi I'm a climbing director at a camp, safety safety safety that's what they teach . i had to go to a week of training to take scouts out.
the one problem about this is a scoutmaster does not need the same training . they just need a simple training (a 1 day course) and i think that's were you may find groups with out proper gear , or knowledge to do things safely
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oldrnotboldr
Sep 29, 2005, 6:33 PM
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I have volunteered for the local troops. The summer camp denied my request to volunteer the last summer my son went. And, both of my kids climb 5.8, know knot craft, how to set belay stations, anchors, and place nuts and cams. not bad for northern micgigan which is not exactly a hot spot for climbing. We usually venture to Canada weekly or every other week for climbing.
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vlasik
Sep 29, 2005, 10:52 PM
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Just wanted to add myself to the list of Eagle Scouts here.
Scouts do get a bad rap, but it introduced me to most of the things that I still enjoy today..Climbin, Skiing, Cooking (I am now a chef), music (I put my first band together with people rom my troop. I continue to run into Eagle scouts today and am amazed how we always find each other.
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xprompt
Sep 30, 2005, 12:16 AM
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All I need is my board of review and I'll be an Eagle!!! It's what got me into climbing as well. As for this,
In reply to: ...i have thought about sending back my eagle badge in protest.
...I think that's ridiculous, how can you...
Am I the only one that saw this?
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jackpinesavage
Sep 30, 2005, 1:03 AM
Post #43 of 144
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Registered: Dec 27, 2004
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I joined scouts BSA venture whatever 2 years ago. I'm 52. I work with the venture climbing crew and outdoor climbing tower near home.
We use pulleys for setting ropes on our tower as a rope wear issue. BSA requires lots of redundancies in any setup. We have had long discussions about pulleys on the belay lines. No redundancy, not enough friction, too tight a radius on the rope etc.
For redundancy, you can run the rope through a separately set up biner that hangs loose next to the pulley. It would only have a load if the pulley somehow blew.
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memory_hole
Sep 30, 2005, 1:18 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: ...i have thought about sending back my eagle badge in protest. ...I think that's ridiculous, how can you... Am I the only one that saw this? |
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lenexa
Sep 30, 2005, 2:19 AM
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My dad is very into scouting. I don't know what to say about myself. I am an eagle, but I don't think thats odd because everyone I knew back in junior high was too. All I remember was scouting was fun, we didn't care much about uniforms or any military type stuff. My troop waterskiied, snow skiied, repelled, shot, and camped. I am not sure why so many scout troops love repelling but they do. Its funny looking back on the very unsafe skiing, repelling and shooting we did. While repelling, we would back up from on top, as in scout went down the rope with a bow-line on his waist that was held by one of the leaders on top. If he seemed to be going fast, the leader would grab the rope tight. Funny now.
I guess the point is that scout leaders make or break the experience. Ours knew that if they pushed merit badges and uniforms we wouldn't come. So they just pushed fun outdoors. I think thats what a lot of scout masters do. They make it fun. My dad doesn't know much. He read some stuff and then started us all repelling. I have since taught the troop safer anchor building.
One new development that is interesting, and my dad is very upset about--is the safety precautions the scouts have written the past two years. He says that they can't go water skiing until the leader is certified in something or other. He can't take them repelling anymore until he takes a big climbing course (and he only wants to repell). same with biking, rifle or 12gauge shooting--any activity a group does now has to have a trained leader. I think thats cool, my dad thinks its a drag. I just hope it doesn't discourage leaders from trying sports they aren't familiar with.
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jamaica
Sep 30, 2005, 3:45 AM
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another Eagle Scout right here, and very proud of it
Boy Scouts is what introduced me to the outdoors period, I'd be a completely different person from who I am now if it wasn't for the Boy Scouts because my life revolves around being outside and the outdoors has taken over my life.
and now I am the guy who teaches that merit badge every summer and would honestly do it for free and for the rest of my life, but...can't do that
plus, the best thing about working as a Climbing Instructor at Boy Scout camp is that the Camp is located only 5 miles from Horseshoe Canyon!! oh God, I love it!
jamaica 8^)
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kenjo
Sep 30, 2005, 6:36 AM
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Interesting topic.
I'm an Eagle, too. My experiences in Scouting were largely positive despite trying to be a contrary little shit. I learned a lot during that time, and definitely gained an appreciation for the environment and the outdoors.
My only qualm is the BSA's aversion to homosexuality and its exclusionary practices otherwise. It's my conviction that any self-proclaimed Christian organization should do the seemingly Christian thing: open its doors to people (kids, for god's sake) of any persuasion with regards to religion or sexuality.
But, like any private organization, the Scouts are far from perfect.
On another note, and in their defense, I'm a little disappointed in how the climbing public has treated the Scouts. Sure, they can live up to their 'dorky,' and perhaps wreckless, stereotypes, but what the hell - they're kids. I'll be first to admit I was a dorky adolescent bent on wreaking havoc.
Add a patrol of seven said kids, with one or two adult leaders, and what do you expect? 100% control and safety 100% of the time? I suggest you lend a helping hand, not point a finger. You could also look at it this way: You'll never be able to stop these kids from climbing, so you might as well give some advice or something.
Ok, cool, I never post but thought I would for once. hehe
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climbinginchico
Sep 30, 2005, 8:14 AM
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Whenever I go climbing or take others climbing, I do strive to maintain control and safety. 100 % of the time, without fail.
My experience with boyscout climbing groups has been that they are underprepared for the task at hand. Meaning, not proper equipment, or training, or knowledge that they are lacking in those areas. Scary.
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thorne
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Sep 30, 2005, 1:08 PM
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In reply to: My experience with boyscout climbing groups has been that they are underprepared for the task at hand. Meaning, not proper equipment, or training, or knowledge that they are lacking in those areas. Scary.
I've heard this sentiment from a number of people. Does anyone have any info on climbing accidents involving scouts?
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kenjo
Sep 30, 2005, 3:17 PM
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Hmm, let's see.
How about 'climbing accidents involving non-scouts who are also beginners'?
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