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chauky
Oct 13, 2005, 5:19 AM
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I just bought some new gear and want to use it. But before I do that I wanted to know what kind of knots you guys use to tie 5.5mm titan cord to my #3 big bro. So far I just have a water knot on it, but if there's a better knot out there, I'm all ears.
I also got a few cams and wanted to mark them in case I share them with others who have the same equipment. Is mutistrips of tape good enough or should I engrave them?
Thanks.
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poedoe
Oct 13, 2005, 5:30 AM
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triple fishermans on the titan cord. Theres tons of debate on marking your gear, you could spend days reading it! I like the tape idea cause I like colors.
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climbinginchico
Oct 13, 2005, 5:32 AM
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On the off chance this isn't a troll, tie a triple fisherman's knot.
Tape should work fine.
And please, please, learn more before you use your gear.
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vegastradguy
Oct 13, 2005, 5:34 AM
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i'm almost 100% sure the little instruction pamphlet that comes with a bro specifically tells you to use a triple fishermans on the 5mm titan cord you sling it with.
if it doesnt, then read the above sentence again. titan cord is slippery stuff, and the only knot i'd trust is a triple fishermans (not a double, which is weaker than you might think).
have fun, climb safe.
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grk10vq
Oct 13, 2005, 5:47 AM
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In reply to: I also got a few cams and wanted to mark them in case I share them with others who have the same equipment. Is mutistrips of tape good enough or should I engrave them?
you should get your mothers maiden name engraved on them.
you have a dog? you should get his name on there too.
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jimdavis
Oct 13, 2005, 5:52 AM
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In reply to: i'm almost 100% sure the little instruction pamphlet that comes with a bro specifically tells you to use a triple fishermans on the 5mm titan cord you sling it with. if it doesnt, then read the above sentence again. titan cord is slippery stuff, and the only knot i'd trust is a triple fishermans (not a double, which is weaker than you might think). have fun, climb safe.
Sort of....the data on Moyer's tests for a double fishermans on Titan was averaged at 3283 lbs breaking strength, versus 3911 lbs for a tripple fishermans.
That's a 19% strength increase, but your already at 15kn anyway with the double fishermans. You might as well use that tripple fishermans anyway, there really isn't much of a reason not to.
Cheers,
Jim
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petsfed
Oct 13, 2005, 6:40 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I also got a few cams and wanted to mark them in case I share them with others who have the same equipment. Is mutistrips of tape good enough or should I engrave them? you should get your mothers maiden name engraved on them. you have a dog? you should get his name on there too.
I would suggest full name (first, middle initial, last) plus mother's maiden name and of course your social security number. Makes it a lot easier to ... uh ... return the cam. Yeah, easier to return the cam. That's it.
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4togo
Oct 13, 2005, 6:41 AM
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In reply to: Tape should work fine.
Sure, until you run into someone with the same color tape on their gear. THEN what do you do? There are only so many hues in the rainbow...
I recommend luggage tags. Not only do they come in more varieties than tape comes in colors, they also offer a convenient form of identification should you get in over your head.
And if someone booties your gear, they'll know where to send the thank-you note.
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chauky
Oct 13, 2005, 7:00 AM
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Sounds like the triple fishermans is the way to go. You know I looked in the box that the big bro came in but I didn't see any tag, must have ripped off some where along the supply chain.
And thanks for the many replies on Cam IDing. It sounds like the topic has come up ad nauseum, so I'm feeling bad that I brought it up at all, don't want to kick the ant hill. My only problem is that since h my dog's name will goon the stems, my mother's maiden name will just have to go on the cam heads. But because I know these will eventually scratch off, I've opted to go for the luggage tags. Don't forget to say "hi" to the guy with luggage tags on his cams the next time you go to the crag! I'll make sure to say thanks!
In all seriousness thanks! I'm definitely new to the game, been climbing for about 6 months, mostly indoors at that. I've read a lot tho and gone trad climbing with some vets though. So I feel I'm in good hands and learning the safe correct way to climb. I think I've got it all worked out except for the question about cam marking, of course.
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hmronnow
Oct 13, 2005, 8:56 AM
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I was playing with placing the double fishermans knot inside the tube of the big bro. This way only the clean cord is on the outside, making the bb's rack even nicer. However, the inside of the tube was a bit tight for the knot, which I had to squeeze in. And, since the inside of the holes for the cord were a little bit sharp, I didn't like it. Maybe if one were to file the sharp edge off the hole it would work. Any thoughts on that?
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reg
Oct 13, 2005, 12:43 PM
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a water knot with cord? don't do that. triple fish. and i agree with climbinginchico.
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paganmonkeyboy
Oct 13, 2005, 12:58 PM
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In reply to: I was playing with placing the double fishermans knot inside the tube of the big bro. This way only the clean cord is on the outside, making the bb's rack even nicer. However, the inside of the tube was a bit tight for the knot, which I had to squeeze in. And, since the inside of the holes for the cord were a little bit sharp, I didn't like it. Maybe if one were to file the sharp edge off the hole it would work. Any thoughts on that?
Troll ? or seriously ?
Use a Triple Fishermans - Not a Double. Tie it off on the outside of the tube so you can see/inspect the knots...and No - I don't think I would take a file to the holes at all.
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hmronnow
Oct 13, 2005, 1:16 PM
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No troll, serious.
The marginal benefit of tripple versus double fishermans was addressed above. This benefit could be compensated by the comfort of reduced snagging (on rack, when placing and in fall situation) on the outside knot. We all the time make comfort v.s. safety choices - otherwise we should climb with 11mm rope and have lockers on every draw.
Of course an inside knot can also be inspected (by puling it out and pushing back in), just takes a bit longer. I'm sure you also check all four indicator lights on your car every time before driving ?
And, do not consider factory design as being a sacred optimum that cannot be modified or improved. You will notice that the edges of the holes have been rounded on the outside by the manufacturer. The reason they have not done this on the inside most certainly has nothing to do with strength but with the complication and hence cost of rounding the inside edges of the hole - no standard tool or milling machine can do this.
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paganmonkeyboy
Oct 13, 2005, 1:34 PM
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I know I have a tough time just moving the 5mm titan cord in those holes, much less pulling out the knot and inspecting it from inside the tube.
Regarding the edges on the inside. If your cord as at all like the stuff I used, I had to lean on it hard with a knife just to cut the stuff. I don't think a sharp 90 degree angle is going to cut the cord, unless you fall on it repeatedly (and even then I am not so sure it would cut/tear the cord - that stuff is pretty bomber...)
And actually I do walk my car fairly often, checking tires and brakes and such with a quick visual before flight...but I'm weird...:D
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hmronnow
Oct 13, 2005, 1:41 PM
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> I don't think a sharp 90 degree angle is going to cut the cord
Since the hole is not towards the centre of the tube, the edge has one side with a shallow angle and one side with a sharp - about 140 degree angle - it was the latter I worried about.
But, as I wrote, I ended opting for outside knot (basically being too lazy to find a suitable file). I was just interested to hear if others had had the same idea.
A+
Henrik
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vegastradguy
Oct 13, 2005, 1:59 PM
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In reply to: In all seriousness thanks! I'm definitely new to the game, been climbing for about 6 months, mostly indoors at that. I've read a lot tho and gone trad climbing with some vets though. So I feel I'm in good hands and learning the safe correct way to climb. I think I've got it all worked out except for the question about cam marking, of course.
If you're that new to trad, be careful using the bro- they're a specialty piece and require patience and technique to use properly. probably best to leave it at home for a few months and work on understanding cams and stoppers first.
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greenketch
Oct 13, 2005, 4:31 PM
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Hmronnow, me thinks you may need practice fussin with cord. I use 5.5mm on my bros, tie them with a triple fishermans and stuff the knot inside. I like it as it makes a clean sling with minimal snag potential.
Yes it takes fair amount of fussin with stuff to get it in there right. I leave a tail and stuff the tail towards the mechanism to keep it all clean. Also I have found longer life with the cord. The cord can move less (or none at all) going through the tube and so it shows less wear at that point.
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papounet
Oct 13, 2005, 6:52 PM
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In reply to: No troll, serious. The marginal benefit of tripple versus double fishermans was addressed above.
Marginal for you perhaps????
IMHO, the "comfort" of the knot (wether if fits inside the device) comes second to its primary function : to hold !!
It is not marginal for manufacturers. There are some well known and well researched properties of modern fibers that MANDATES the use of triple knots for the 5.5 stuff which seems so bomber to you.
Hint: they slip, they slither, they cut themselves, they don't flex-cycle well.
Many sources on internet among which
http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/High_Strength_Cord.pdf
http://www.rei.com/online/store/LearnShareDetailArticlesList?categoryId=Climbing&url=rei/learn/climb/chcordf.jsp
http://spelean.com.au/BW/TM/BWtechcrd.html
In reply to: We recommend finishing the ends of Titan chock slings by "milking" about a half-inch of the Spectra core out from the sheath, removing it and then melting the nylon sheath into a smooth hard "cap" on the end of the cord. This method of finishing will allow the cord to fit all chocks easily. We also recommend joining the ends of Titan cord slings with a triple fisherman's knot to minimize any chance of the knot slipping. |
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chauky
Oct 13, 2005, 9:55 PM
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In reply to: If you're that new to trad, be careful using the bro- they're a specialty piece and require patience and technique to use properly. probably best to leave it at home for a few months and work on understanding cams and stoppers first.
VegTG-I've been climbing on a set of BD stoppers and hexes for about 6 months now and just moved into the realm of spring loaded protection. I feel pretty comfortable with placing passive pro so that's why I've moved to the next level. But you're right, next time I hit an OW, I'll probably spend a few hours just messing around with BB placements before even weighting it, let alone place it for pro.
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jimdavis
Oct 14, 2005, 3:21 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: No troll, serious. The marginal benefit of tripple versus double fishermans was addressed above. Marginal for you perhaps???? IMHO, the "comfort" of the knot (wether if fits inside the device) comes second to its primary function : to hold !! It is not marginal for manufacturers. There are some well known and well researched properties of modern fibers that MANDATES the use of triple knots for the 5.5 stuff which seems so bomber to you. Hint: they slip, they slither, they cut themselves, they don't flex-cycle well. Many sources on internet among which http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/High_Strength_Cord.pdf
You seem a little animated about this whole marginal thing. It IS a marginal increase in strength. Your already around 15kn with a double; that's stronger than most wired gear, stronger than small cams, and damn close to a large BD camalot (at 16kn). The fact that going to a tripple fishemans gives you 19% increase over that, is marginal.
How many pieces of wired gear rated at 10kn have failed? How often do the pieces catch huge falls?
The things you hint about, are problems strongly associated with Kevlar, and Vectran based cords. Spectra being slippier doesn't have these problems nearly as bad as the other stuff out there.
There are no MANDATES in climbing. There isn't a climbing police that's gonna stop you from having your biner gates a certain way, tieing in with a bowline rather than a figure 8, or tieing a double fishermans rather than a tripple. It's all about what your comfortable with, and what gets you home safe.
The data I showed, was FROM the link you posted. The double didn't fail under 15kn's. If that's strong enough for you to be comfortable with, do it...if you want that extra measure of security (and most people do) then tie a tripple.
I tie a tripple on mine, but it's not the end of the world if you don't. I did the math there for you, you get less than a 20% increase in strength from going to a tripple fishemans.
So, you all have the information, do with it what you see fit.
Cheers,
Jim
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papounet
Oct 14, 2005, 9:41 PM
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MANDATES may have been too strong a word, but which word would you use to convey the necessary caution one ought to have when reading
In reply to: Slow Pull Tests The Technora and Kevlar/Spectra cords live up to their billing as having extraordinary tensile strength, but the story changes immediately when the cord is knotted. Knot efficiencies for a figure-eight knot ranged from 40% on the Gemini to 92% on the Nylon. For a double fisherman's knot, Gemini and Titan share an interesting failure mode. The sheath breaks at the knot and the slippery core unties, pulling through the sheath. When a triple fisherman's knot is tied, this does not happen. The strength gain for the triple fisherman's is not large, but it is enough to change the mechanism.
A 20% increase and change in the mechanism is not a marginal increase, it may be not necessary, but it does not make it marginal.
unless mistaken, no one mentionned using spectra. I was under the impression that we were discussing Tech cord
quote]Black Diamond Gemini2 has a
Technora core and a polyester sheath. It is identical to the product sold as "Tech Cord" by Maxim (New England
Rope).
I got into motion not because using double fisherman knots is the end of the world, but because the reason given by hmronnow for preferring them over the triple was "cosmetic".
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