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caughtinside


Oct 14, 2005, 12:56 AM
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Ground up FA ethic question...
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Ok, just for fun.

It's been discussed at length how a ground up FA is better style than cleaning and bolting something on rappel.

Here's my question. If you're going ground up, but using aid to drill holes and place bolts, is that really any better style than rap bolting? Neither is drilled from a natural stance. You're either hanging from a hook, a piece, or in the case of rap bolting, a rope.

Naturally, some routes make more sense to go ground up on, and bolt from aid. But I wouldn't say at all that its better style than rap bolting.

Truth be told, the issue isn't that important to me personally, but I suspect that some people feel differently than me.


overlord


Oct 14, 2005, 1:03 AM
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well, its harder to do than rap bolting and hence its a better style. and a bit more risky.


t-dog
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Oct 14, 2005, 1:16 AM
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In reply to:
well, its harder to do than rap bolting and hence its a better style. and a bit more risky.

so you are directly associating increased difficulty/effort with better style? and riskier doesn't necessarily equate with better style.

Double gastoning your way up a fist crack is way harder than jamming it but is definitely not better style!

Not clipping bolts on a sport climb is riskier but just plain stupid, not better style.

As for the OP's question, unless you're drilling from natural stances, the difference of style is very minimal. and the choice of which should be done IMO should be done mainly on which is most accessible/convenient than anything else.


norushnomore


Oct 14, 2005, 1:23 AM
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Well, you are going up and don't know what to expect: it's a better style.
Now would your aid stance bolts make a better route? Probably not.


michelleh


Oct 14, 2005, 1:31 AM
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I think the difference has more to do with the care taken when placing bolts. When ascending from ground up, you will place bolts in a place where the clip will be from a stable rest. When you bolt on rap, there may be a temptation to just bolt every xxx metres and the placement of the bolts will be less than optimal.

But that is the greatest difference for me, and I think the issue of 'better style' may actually be linked to this rather than the mechanics of bolting.


Partner euroford


Oct 14, 2005, 3:27 AM
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look, its pretty simple really. the whole point of climbing something is starting at the bottom and finishing at the top.


tradmanclimbs


Oct 14, 2005, 4:14 AM
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First read eorofords post. second. Bolting ground up is a whole lot more fun then wanking arround on a top rope. third, untill you have actualy done some aid climbing, untill you have actually hand drilled from a scetchy hook STFU about poor style :twisted: bachar yerin which is arguably the most famous example of a rout drilled ground up in good style was drilled at least partialy from hooks (aid)


ambler


Oct 14, 2005, 6:31 AM
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In reply to:
It's been discussed at length how a ground up FA is better style than cleaning and bolting something on rappel.

Here's my question. If you're going ground up, but using aid to drill holes and place bolts, is that really any better style than rap bolting?
So here's another question: for what fraction of the RC.com community does the word "climbing" mean only "sport climbing?" And "first ascent" refers mainly to "cleaning and bolting?" The OP seems to assume that, whereas at least a few of the replies might come from folks who have experienced other kinds of climbing, or even other kinds of first ascents. And when those folks talk about first ascents, some sport climbers will complain they're naive, they don't get it.

I'm not complaining about sport climbing; just complaining about the large number of climbers who write generalizations about "climbing," when their experience is so narrow that sport climbing is all that they know.


Partner happiegrrrl


Oct 14, 2005, 6:59 AM
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http://img.photobucket.com/...piegrrrl/Project.jpg

"When I'm working my gnarliest FA's, I only go with the best. Hire out one of the old-school luddites, and arm him with a Bosh. He'll hang from a skyhook, AND get buckets more bolts loaded. Nobody will ever know....I'm Charlie the Tuna, and I've got great taste!"

(Sorry for the crap photo job; I have only a puny photo editor that I never learned to use well....)


glowering


Oct 14, 2005, 6:59 AM
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http://img414.imageshack.us/...4/7431/fishin8um.jpg

Trick question: There's no style in sport. :wink:


glowering


Oct 14, 2005, 7:07 AM
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But since I already weighed in my opinion on the Bolting Ethics thread, I'll copy and paste :) :

In reply to:
Anyway, rap or ground up is mostly a question of STYLE. If the bolter knows what they are doing they should be able to put the bolts in the right place either way (although more difficult with ground up).

Ground up is a better style (more challenging usually), but that's up to the FA, and we are mostly talking sport here, where difficulty (and the best placement of the bolts) is the main concern, so style of the FA isn't a big deal. The only way you would know if it was rap bolted is if you ask the FA, so who cares? (besides the FA, who will choose their own style)

The only ethical consideration I can think of is whether a rap bolter has "taken" away a line someone else could have done it ground up. But that leads to elitism, which is the antithesis of the individuality of climbing. In some areas where that ethic is in place and the challenge to do ground up FAs is established (trad areas mainly) we should respect that, but in most areas we should defer to the age old guideline of humanity: first come, first served.


Partner angry


Oct 14, 2005, 7:21 AM
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I've been on lots of routes that were bolted on rap, and some that were bolted on lead. Basically it comes down to whether or not the bolter did a good job.

A run out slab with bolts at the stances is a wonderful thing. The trouble is when the first bolt is so far above the crux (due to lack of stances) that it may as well be a free solo.

Grid bolted sport routes suck balls, I can't think of a less inspiring type of climbing (yes I prefer the gym to that shit). If the bolter were to take several laps up the route and really get a feel for where bolts ought to be, then drill, it's better.

Don't misread this, all sport climbing sucks, there are just some types that suck more than others.


king_rat


Oct 14, 2005, 7:22 AM
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I donít think there can be any absolute answer, and for me itís the final outcome that counts. If a climb is bolted from the ground up and the bolts are well spaced, and in well thought out places, then the end result is satisfactory. If on the other hand the bolts are poorly spaced with a cluster of bolts over the easy ground and then nothing where you need it most, then its going to make a poor climbing experience.

If simmarlary if the route bolted from the top down, then the ideal would be the same, evenly spaced and well thought out, not placed every 2 meters just because they can.


fracture


Oct 14, 2005, 7:44 AM
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In reply to:
Ok, just for fun.

:D

In reply to:
Here's my question. If you're going ground up, but using aid to drill holes and place bolts, is that really any better style than rap bolting? Neither is drilled from a natural stance. You're either hanging from a hook, a piece, or in the case of rap bolting, a rope.

So here's something else: I was recently reading that it was more or less the usual practice for at least one guy at this local ground-up slab area (back 'n the day an' shit) to use their drill bit to "kinda hang on". The guy used to tout 3/8th inch bits over 1/4 inch for this reason specifically, and once even fell on the bit while drilling.

So the question is: is that aid? Is that common practice when drilling "ground up and free"? Because it sure as hell doesn't sound free to me....

(But what do I know; from my perspective, that whole style of game is basically a joke ;)).


fracture


Oct 14, 2005, 7:45 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
well, its harder to do than rap bolting and hence its a better style. and a bit more risky.

so you are directly associating increased difficulty/effort with better style? and riskier doesn't necessarily equate with better style.

Double gastoning your way up a fist crack is way harder than jamming it but is definitely not better style!

Perfect analogy.


dingus


Oct 14, 2005, 7:51 AM
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Here is an exercise caughtinside... try it. The differences, such as they are, will be self-evident long about the 3rd hole or so.

It is a different gig, one that includes risk management and lead climbing skills. But to me, and this might seem odd for someone toting an electric rotary hammer, its the heading up into the blank unknown that is hardest.

Hand drilling from hooks is mild bomb squad work, generally speaking. It can be nerve wracking.

DMT


esoteric1


Oct 14, 2005, 7:52 AM
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Drilling from a stance on 5.10 and lower routes is possible enough, depending on how verticle the route is, I would much rather climb a route bolted ground up, using the best possible style. When was the last time you climbed a hand drilled route that had too many bolts? and if you like climbing a route that has bolts every 4 feet, you might as well be top roping.

granted, sometimes cruxes are more often than not more than one move, on harder routes the boulder problems are sometimes many moves and you cant comfortably clip until you hit a stance. this is climbing to me, if your on a blank section on a trad route, what do you do? expect a bolt? of course not, you fire through until you hit a spot that will accept good gear, provided it doesnt turn the route into a free solo...

I dont get it, as far as the rap bolting thing goes, whats the hurry? to get as many routes in before the next guy steals your line? to get your name in a guide book? use the new free route on el cap for a guideline....whats it go at? 13something? with no fixed protection added? this is what we as a comunity should be striving for. power drills should be used for drilling cement, hand drills should be used for drilling rock.
that would certainly cut down on the destruction of our resources, imho
mark


dingus


Oct 14, 2005, 8:10 AM
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Rap drilling has its place too.

DMT


tradmanclimbs


Oct 14, 2005, 8:49 AM
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fractuer, spoken like a true climber of small rocks :roll: yes once you have the hole partialy drilled it is common practice and allways has been to tell your brain that if your feet blow out or your hook pops that you will hang on to the drill to avoid the fall. i have never been successfull at this. everytime my hook has popped i have gone for the big ride regardless of how far allong the hole was. Why dont you give it a try before you diregard it as cheating :roll:


dingus


Oct 14, 2005, 8:52 AM
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In reply to:
fractuer, spoken like a true climber of small rocks :roll: yes once you have the hole partialy drilled it is common practice and allways has been to tell your brain that if your feet blow out or your hook pops that you will hang on to the drill to avoid the fall. i have never been successfull at this. everytime my hook has popped i have gone for the big ride regardless of how far allong the hole was. Why dont you give it a try before you diregard it as cheating :roll:

I belayed my bro Angus on the FA of The Last Jeep Ride. He was hanging from a tenuous hook to drill the last hole and the hook popped 3 times. It was slabby, not overhanging, so the first two times his feet took weight long enough to reset the hook. 3rd time he was busy drilling and he came off.

He caught himself with the drill bit. Stayed put after that and finished the pitch.

He bent the PISS outta that bit! Ruint it, be did. It was actually quite funny.

DMT


asandh


Oct 14, 2005, 9:15 AM
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:)


caughtinside


Oct 14, 2005, 9:26 AM
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Hmm, nice post asandh.

A couple thoughts. I put this in the trad forum, because I had trad climbs in mind. It's my belief that it doesn't matter on a sport route.

I guess part of my question was 'So what?' if you did it ground up. I think asandh did a good job answering: personal satisfaction. He pointed out that it makes little (real) difference to subsequent parties.

I was thinking that if you climb it, but have to use aid to get in the bolts, you haven't free climbed it, so you have to go back and redpoint anyway, assuming you want to free the line.

FYI, I've done a little ground up work myself, but on total choss. As such, we used removable bolts to make progress and hang from while we put in the lead bolts, instead of hooks. It was more work, and more of a clusterfuck than rap bolting. And all I remember was the redpoints. I didn't get any more satisfaction from the actual bolting of the routes. But, these are sport style routes.

Also, a few people assumed I was talking about going ground up with a hand drill. What about establishing a hook, and then pulling up the bosch on a trail line? Is that superior style?


tradmanclimbs


Oct 14, 2005, 9:41 AM
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Bosching on lead is not as much work as hand drilling on lead but it is still pleanty exciteing. one of our local NE climbers popped a hook while boching, the lead rope cut on a sharp edge and he decked from 70ft and survived. landed in steep brush i belive. the climbing is the same but you don't get as pumped as hand drilling and your calfs don't get as burned but there is still pleanty of danger. i also have rap bolted and it does not give me any satisfaction. allways feel like i cheated. yess it is standard practice to pull the ropes and redpoint after useing aid on an fa. i am not suer that drilling a bolt ladder with removeable bolts is really anything to write home about. definatly cheating in my book. the whole point is to get up it with hooks beaks tied off blades and spicy climbing. if you plan on drilling it into submission then you might as well rap bolt it.


asandh


Oct 14, 2005, 9:43 AM
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:)


climbingaggie03


Oct 14, 2005, 9:56 AM
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To tie in with what Fracture was saying there is an area in texas (enchanted rock) that the FA parties all hand drilled on lead (with hooks) but since it was hand drilled on lead the climbs are extremely run out and have risk much closer to adventure trad climbs than the sport climbs on limestone that dominate the rest of the hill country.

I'm not sure what I think, I love climbing at e-rock, but wish I didn't have to risk a deck so often one climb is a 5.6 around 120 feet, and has 4 bolts plus anchors. It is only 5.6 but it still scares the hell out of me, although if i were the FA I wouldn't have put any more bolts on it if i was doing it on lead. It is a whole different game from climbing around austin though which is mostly rap bolted i think. It is slowly changing and being retro bolted (with the fa's permission, general concensus, and land managers permission)

that said I think there can be great quality rap bolted routes, New Jack city is well protected, but with the routes i've seen put up there, Jack saw the climb, Tr'ed it, put in TR anchors, then figured out the stances for the bolts. I heard one interesting discussion when another climber was trying the route, he said something about a potential fall and Jack said, "you have to take responsibility for yourself some time" Most of the routes in the hill country are well protected and well thought out which is nice, but makes climbing stuff with more of an adventure potential harder.

I guess my conclusion is bolt it however you want (if you are the FA), and think of your own safety first, but also remember that other people are going to be climbing this so try to think of them too. and If you are not the FA and you don't like the way a route is protected, then don't climb it, TR it, or push your comfort zone a little bit. I think the best sign of good style from a FA is a fun and interesting route

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