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cfnubbler
Oct 25, 2004, 7:00 PM
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In reply to: why are they presenting it as such?
Gee, I dunno- Because BD absolutely DOMINATES the cam market and they're grasping at any and all arguments they think might help them recover some market share?
-Nubbler
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david.yount
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Oct 25, 2004, 7:27 PM
Post #52 of 87
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In reply to: In reply to: So the frictional force that holds the metal lobes in place, so that they may rotate or cam during a fall is determined by the spring tension and the c.o.f. along with any attenuating factors. I believe this is kind of missleading, the spring tension does not provide most of the friction during the fall rather the cam angle
I was trying to say that the initial frictional force that keeps the camming unit in place after you release the trigger, is supplied by the lobe springs. These springs hold the lobes in place at the very initial loading. The lobes are held in place by the springs (only initially) so that the lobes may cam during the downward force.
The downward force created by the falling climber is countered by the cams' upward force. The cam creates upward force by friction between the metal lobes and the rock. The frictional force, which is upwards, is created by the outward force the lobes create. The outward force is created by the lobes rotating.
In reply to: Springs minimize walking and provide an intial "set" so the cam is held in place to allow the above to work.
david yount.
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dharmacase
Oct 25, 2004, 7:53 PM
Post #53 of 87
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The new BD's are definatley worth it, regardless if your aid or are a trad climber. The added clip in loop is excellent for clean aid, I screwed around with a #1 in comparision with the old #1 and the loop saves inches in placement, and when aiding who doesnt want a triple set of cam that are 20% lighter. bottom line....bomber.
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angry
Oct 25, 2004, 8:25 PM
Post #54 of 87
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Why hasn't anyone mentioned that BD completely F-ed up the larger sizes. I'll agree the smaller and medium sizes are improved but the 4 is about the same size as a 3.5 is now and the 5 is about the size of the 4.5.
So what does that mean?
BIG Mother Flucking hole in the rack!!!!!
WC has this same hole between the 4 and 5. The BD #4 regardless of brand loyalty was essential, it is the only size made for that rattly fist. The ones are going to be so loose they'll walk and fall if you breathe on them or so tight that lunar pull could permanently fix them.
I can't believe they took something that only they had and eliminated it. Lighter, neat loop? Whoop de do!!!! I'm extra pissed that I pitched mine off the Narrows on Steck Salathe now.
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jklinke
Oct 25, 2004, 8:48 PM
Post #55 of 87
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In reply to: fshizzle wrote: Why hasn't anyone mentioned that BD completely F-ed up the larger sizes. I'll agree the smaller and medium sizes are improved but the 4 is about the same size as a 3.5 is now and the 5 is about the size of the 4.5. So what does that mean? BIG Mother Flucking hole in the rack!!!!!
Granted the different sizing of new #4 and #5 is bound to confuse many a climber, but according to the comparison chart (http://www.bdel.com/...ck/cam_chart_web.jpg) there's no hole in the rack.
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angry
Oct 25, 2004, 8:59 PM
Post #56 of 87
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Had them in my hand bro. The chart isn't real world, there's a hole. In 3 or 4 months when a lot of people have them and use them, you better believe that this hole I speak of will get mentioned here a lot.
If I'm wrong, nominate me for a Gumby of the Year award.
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sspssp
Oct 25, 2004, 10:48 PM
Post #57 of 87
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I'm actually happy with the new #4. Yea, there is a hole between the #3 Camalot and the #4 Camalot. However, the #4 Friend nicely fills this spot and the new #4 C is a nice size that is far lighter than the old #4 (in addition to the new design being lighter, it is a smaller piece).
I think the new #4 will overlap fine with the #5 Friend (although I'm not a 100% sure about this yet).
There is a gap, but now it is at the very end. The two largest cams for both Camalots and Friends are close to the same size (the very largest is identical at the maximum range, I'm not sure if the next to largest are as close). There was a gap in the Friends between the #5 WC and #6 WC that could be somewhat overcome witht the Camalots because Camalots biggest piece used to be a little smaller than the WC. This isn't true anymore.
If you are pushing cams up a slowly expanding OW, the #5 is going to be really tipped out before the #6 goes in and you won't be able to go to a different brand to solve it (I guess you can always place a Big Bro, suck it up and climb with out a top rope protection).
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chico
Oct 26, 2004, 7:44 PM
Post #58 of 87
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Well, here we go. Straight from the horses mouth. A reply from Wild Country:
When Ray Jardine created Friends way back in the 70's, the concept, for climbing protection at least, was entirely new and untried. To create a commercial product it had to be 'bomb proof' he looked at every
conceivable failure mode, one of which was cam bounce. He reasoned that, as the laws of physics state, every action has an equal and
opposite reaction, that when a camming device was loaded in a fall the cams would impact the crack face and would bounce back in reaction to the load applied. As this happens very very quickly, at the instant of loading the cam, it is a very difficult concept to demonstrate in practice, but the physics justified its consideration. He therefore reasoned that strong springs would hold the cams against the crack face more securely than soft springs and would minimise this cam bounce reaction.
Experience in the intervening 3 decades has vindicated Ray's reasoning as Wild Country Friends have an unrivalled reputation for predictability, that is if placed correctly they don't pull out in unexplained circumstances.
There are many other factors which contribute to this predictable reputation, four cams in opposing pairs, a single carbon steel axle, the 13.75 degree cam angle, the cam material, a single stem, the list goes on with strong springs an important part of the formula.
The fact that the Wild Country Friend design is the most successfully copied, further proves that Ray Jardines original design concept for a camming device is the most reliable and predictable design available.
Other manufacturers have not had to worry if their cams will work predictably in all circumstances, because Wild Country has done that for them over 3 decades, if they choose to vary Ray's formula for cam design they travel into uncharted waters, without the history they are merely experimenting.
Very best regards,
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sirdrinksalot
Oct 26, 2004, 9:55 PM
Post #59 of 87
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i wouldn't say that the new camalots' performance is inferior, but i do believe that the removal of the 4.5 is a mistake, and people will go elsewhere to supplement their racks, where as if you bought .5-5 (double up on 1 and 2)of the old camalots and a #6 friend and any set of nuts and hexes, you would have a go anywhere, do anything rack.(save for larger offwidth and chimney, which require special gear(ie: bigbros or 2x4's) and more balls than any of you pansies have anyway) :twisted:
ps. to the guy who started this thread, take your time and if you do get the old camalots, you will not be dissapointed.
and chico, even though i don't feel you on the whole bounce and chatter thing i totally dig your perseverance, rock on.
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grin-n-barrett
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Aug 5, 2005, 7:58 PM
Post #60 of 87
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I love good friends...
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ctardi
Aug 7, 2005, 4:28 AM
Post #61 of 87
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What is the general opinion on the Black Diamond Stoppers? I'm thinking of buying a set of 10, and at 77 CAD, it ain't too bad. Comes with a racking biner...but are they any good? Solid placements? Durable? Easily racked? Easy cleanability?
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mdude
Aug 7, 2005, 5:10 AM
Post #62 of 87
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WELL....YEAAAAAAA.
Chouinard helped the clean climbing revolution with the stopper. Now one that you can trust more than that. Chouinard then turned into Black Diamond.
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ctardi
Aug 7, 2005, 5:22 AM
Post #63 of 87
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Well, i've heard enough, I'm off to get a set tomorrrow!
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flipnfall
Aug 7, 2005, 11:25 AM
Post #64 of 87
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BD is great. I've owned their Camlots for years and years and they still work great! Highly impressed with them as a company.
But then again, I've been told that my opinion doesn't matter...Oh well.
GT
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one900johnnyk
Aug 7, 2005, 12:25 PM
Post #65 of 87
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In reply to: Had them in my hand bro. The chart isn't real world, there's a hole. In 3 or 4 months when a lot of people have them and use them, you better believe that this hole I speak of will get mentioned here a lot. If I'm wrong, nominate me for a Gumby of the Year award. |
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grin-n-barrett
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Oct 20, 2005, 8:34 PM
Post #67 of 87
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My understanding is that they are out now...is that right?
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tradklime
Oct 20, 2005, 9:47 PM
Post #68 of 87
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In reply to: In reply to: Had them in my hand bro. The chart isn't real world, there's a hole. In 3 or 4 months when a lot of people have them and use them, you better believe that this hole I speak of will get mentioned here a lot. If I'm wrong, nominate me for a Gumby of the Year award. so nominated...
Well he was wrong about the uproar, but not about the hole in the sizing. I think that not enough people like fist cracks to ever really notice. The size of the old number 4 is indispensable, if you climb wide fist cracks. Thankfully the newer Rock Empire #6 pulsar is very close in size.
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chris_sheridan
Oct 20, 2005, 10:29 PM
Post #69 of 87
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Chico,
I only have a B.S. in Mechanical engineering, but I think your line of reasoning is a bit off. A lower spring force should have negligable effects on the pull out strenght. You might want to re-read newton's laws of motion.
Chris
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brutusofwyde
Oct 20, 2005, 11:41 PM
Post #70 of 87
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For my money, I'm going with a full set of Trango Max-Cams: Doubled runner, and lighter with more expansion range than the C4s. One of the most imaginative, inovative and useful cam designs I have seen in the past 30 years. Too bad the #4 is sidelined in the prototype stage.
Brutus
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brianinslc
Oct 21, 2005, 12:04 AM
Post #71 of 87
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Posts: 1500
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In reply to: For my money, I'm going with a full set of Trango Max-Cams: Doubled runner, and lighter with more expansion range than the C4s. One of the most imaginative, inovative and useful cam designs I have seen in the past 30 years. Too bad the #4 is sidelined in the prototype stage.
I wonder about the cam angle on the Trango cams. Might be a diminishing return when it comes to "useful" expansion range. I don't wanna hear a naggin' little voice in the back of my head, "think it'll hold if you fall?".
Been very psyched on the new Camalots. Call it puppy love, but, they just have a really great "feel". Gucci, perhaps, but, the new Neutrino Rack Pack is kinda nifty too. Biner colors matched to cams. Sweet. Dude.
I think the new larger range Metolius cam is pretty cool, as far as new designs do (not to get too wrapped around the axle...ha ha). Be nice to not have to worry about the trigger wires for a change too. Pretty neat-o.
Hey, Brewtus, I hit the Pinnacles, Squarenail, and Courtright a couple weeks back. Figured I'd get you back for climbing in my backyard this summer. Neener neener!
Cheers,
Brian in SLC
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lichenmuncher
Oct 21, 2005, 4:19 AM
Post #72 of 87
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:?:
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wetyeti
Oct 21, 2005, 4:47 AM
Post #73 of 87
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hey brutus, the trango aren't all they are cracked up to be. i don't think the BDs can be beat. and in april of next year they are releasing their TCUs
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thrmaln
Oct 21, 2005, 4:49 AM
Post #74 of 87
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Registered: Mar 4, 2005
Posts: 160
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hey guys,
I am using both C4's and Maxcams side by side. I like them both a lot and they back each other up nicely since their sling colors coincide. I was waiting to get a full set of maxcams but they only released size 1 and 2. I bought both maxcams as well as a #1, #2 AND #3 C4. I think I like the added flexibility of the maxcams, but both brands work so well I am happy with using either. As more maxcams are released I intend to buy them.
Maxcam or C4, either are great!
Marc Webster
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avitripp
Oct 21, 2005, 5:40 AM
Post #75 of 87
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Posts: 67
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BDs + Aliens = :D
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