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stabla
Oct 20, 2005, 3:36 AM
Post #51 of 56
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Registered: Apr 29, 2005
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I wasn't being sarcastic tradrenn i totally agree with ya on runnin' it out man
yahtzee!
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tradrenn
Oct 21, 2005, 2:14 AM
Post #52 of 56
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Registered: Jan 16, 2005
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In reply to: I wasn't being sarcastic tradrenn i totally agree with ya on runnin' it out man yahtzee!
Nice
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sspssp
Oct 22, 2005, 7:05 PM
Post #53 of 56
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Registered: Jan 2, 2003
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In reply to: In reply to: My understanding is, the cords that make up the core of a rope are wound in a spiral. When you rap on a rope (even with a "neutral" device like an ATC), the weight will cause the rope to try and untwist and then later the rope will want to twist back up when it is not weighted. If the rope is properly constructed with an equal number of S and Z strands, weighting it or unweighting it will make absolutely no difference in twisting. Recommend you look up some old Clyde Soles articles and posts regarding rope construction.
I looked for the discussion I had read earlier and couldn't find it. Maybe modern ropes are "neutral", but I don't personally believe it.
The three things I look for when I buy a new rope are:
1. A rope that doesn't twist.
2. A rope that doesn't twist.
3. And ah, hhmm, a rope that doesn't twist.
I am careful to "unspool" it when I first buy it. The only belay devices I use are the jaws and the cinch and I always run the rope off the end. When I used a grigri, I always ran the rope off the end, instead of the side (like I see most climbers do).
I take all other precautions that I am aware of, such as butterfly coiling not mountaineers, I will add slings to an anchor to keep from feeding the rope directly through the oversized Metolius rap hangers, etc...
Given all of this, the ropes I use today seem to be much more twisty than the ropes I had back when I started climbing in the early 90s. Some of this is no doubt due to smaller diameter ropes. However, my first several years of climbing I used a figure 8 ("for crying out loud") not to mention all the other areas that I was clueless about causing twists. And even the "fat" 10.5 ropes (for rougher environments) I use today seem to twist more than the skinny 10.5s I used in the 90's. And I don't care how much hype there is about handability and being neutral. It's just like light weight scholler, they can scream all they want about super durability but you can ripe out a hole with one fall at the creek (I can vouch for that). Opps, sorry about the diversionary rant...
Anyway, I was completely at a lost to why this was. Then when I read on somebodies (I still think it was blue water but it could have been one of the others), that there was a complete change in how the core was constructed (which gave the rope a better score on number of falls held)... I have to say that I am still convinced that there was some fundamental shift in rope technology that leads to more twists than ropes of old.
I would prefer to buy ropes with early 90's construction even if they wore out sooner (I'm no longer a starving student). But all the marketing seems to be about rope weight and low impact forces.
Cheers
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puma
Oct 24, 2005, 12:00 AM
Post #54 of 56
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Registered: Jan 19, 2003
Posts: 59
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Hmm, can one even buy ropes almost 15 yrs old on the market still? Climbing ropes are made from twisted fibers, good luck trying to find one that won't twist.
Almost all the time I've had twists it was because of something I was doing. Check your partner to make sure they are also on the same page. Check your device ...those Jaws seem to put a little more friction than say, trango pyramid. We cannot expect to run a rope made of twisted fibers, with tension, over thin diameter radii and not expect some twists to be induced.
At the start of the climb I may not tie-in until the leader has pulled up all the rope and letting any twists run out before closing the loop. Or if there is time, I'll flake the rope back and forth a few times slowly, and carefully unfurling any twists, all the while thinking good mojo so the rope behaves :p Some of this stuff I and others have mentioned before, but anyway I'm bored before a party so.....
When I buy a new rope, I am not really satisfied with just careful unwinding...not until I can throw that rope over a cliff and let it hang from one end then rap on it a couple times to iron it out!
Tips for Moving Fast on Multipitch, my number one tip:
Don't use doubles. Usually the long and fast climbs I've done, w/ equal partner, were with a single rope. Of course if you must have an extra line for rapping: 3 options- 1) tie in to both, drag both thru biners all the way up- slower 2) lead on single and leader trails extra line-fast 3) have extra line in small pack the second carries- faster.... or have second trail extra line-careful with this though-must make nice stack for rope to pull off from and nothing to obstruct it.
Transitioning at the Top:
If the leader takes both ropes up on the last pitch of a climb (if one knows you're going right back down). When the second arrives, you keep them on belay and lower them right back down, especially good in windy conditions.
Transitioning between Belays:
More of what will help the "moving fast" on long climbs is being with equal partner that can both quickly set and clean gear, read terrain and ability to climb a range of techniques. "Moving fast" doesn't come until many pitches have been climbed, if your partner is slower than you, there is no way you are going to make them climb as fast as you, eventually maybe.
Pretty soon, "moving fast" will mean, being relaxed and moving smoothly, w/ less effort it becomes effortless. Making the moves you make count, instead of making extra moves count against you. ie. getting off-route, bad rope skills.
Time where I've run my fastest on pitched climbing, not simul, were when I've had equal partner w/ the above description and we were not even stopping but to maybe take off the pack and grab a key piece or two. Nobody clips in, nobody takes anyone off belay. You just go...each person after about 3 pitches will have the equivalent of a decent rack, we just go with that. Sure you start w/ a sizeable rack... some doubles. If you've ever watched a storm over your shoulder you will have learned to climb like this. The rope *briefly* stops at the belay...like 30 seconds.
How fast is fast?
Who knows? It's too personal. Personally to me, trad pro and anchors, difficulty of pitches at ones level, should be leading them around 20 min. Following about 10 minutes. Just above your level, should lead a pitch in 30 min, following 15-20 min...sometimes it's as hard to follow a steeper pitch than it is to lead when carrying a pack. And because you didn't lead it, you may not know what is the easiest way to do a certain section and you may just see the rope going up and following that sometimes may be harder.
Belaying:
Great video clip w/ Allan Jolley, one of my instructors- I'm forever indebted to him for being instrumental w/ improving my speed, big time. One thing about the second clip w/ the girl and her belaying on a ledge like that, I simply stack the rope right below the anchor, pull it straight down, better body mechanics. And the second thing is when you're plopping it down in a tight little pile, >smack< it down every now and then to pancake it and tighten it up. If I'm standing I even do this with my foot. That way if someone accidentally knocks it over it won't be a mess. Then you can just pick it up and move wherever you like, turn it over in 1/2 second if you are going to lead again... I've even picked up the stack, stuffed it under my arm and walked with it to another spot on a ledge, eliminating any extra steps for the rope, soon as I plop it down, it's ready to go.
Be in control. GiGis Rock. Roll those belays. Peace.
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toml
Oct 27, 2005, 4:06 PM
Post #55 of 56
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Registered: Feb 6, 2004
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In reply to: I'd definitly agree. I've seen the Moving Faster DVD, and the Self Rescue, and they're both amazing. Great refrence to have to, you'll be going back to them a lot. Cheers, Jim
I'll third that. Moving Faster is the DVD for you - The Pancake Stack technique is a great start. Hans Florine's Speed Climbing book is also worth a read. Another interesting source is Mark Twight's Extreme Alpinism book.
Some other tips:
1. Push your limit bouldering or TRing. Climb multipitch below your limit, so you can focus on being efficient instead of worked.
2. Belay at efficient spots. Here I'll disagree with people in favor of longer ropes and longer pitches. Being 70m away from your partner often leads to fustercluckage, with rope drag and poor communication. If you come to a nice stance where you can build an anchor in 12 seconds (I have done that with a trad anchor, and I'm no superman) and you're 100' out, stop, unless you know where the next great stance is. Having a longer rope may not be helpful if you keep having to haul all the rope up. Stopping 30' shorter but building the anchor faster and avoiding lots of rope drag is going to save you time. Of course, with some routes, longer ropes help do this, but anyway...
3. Lead in blocks. The longer the route the more useful this is. Mentally and physically, the leader and second can specialize in their tasks.
3A. Plan your lead strategy esp. when leading in blocks. Look at the tope, weather, etc. Figure out where you're likely to belay, eat, likely to get lost, etc. On the route, don't be afraid to check your topo (if any). A minute checking that could save a half hour of being off route.
4. Use an autoblocker when belaying the second, like a GiGi or Reverso. This frees up one hand for tasks like snacking and applying sunblock.
5. Plan the descent beforehand. Can you hike down? Likely the fastest. Can you lower someone and rap after them? Saves having to throw down the ropes. If you're climbing fast enough, the descent becomes a major part of the total time unless you speed it up dramatically as well.
6. Time yourself a few times (use watch with a second hand), not rushing, but trying to be efficient. Record these times:
T0 leave car
T1 arrive at base of route
T2 leader starts climbing pitch 1
T3 leader arrives at Belay 1
T4 second starts climbing pitch 1
T5 second arrives at Belay 1
T6 somebody starts climbing pitch 2
...
TN second arrives at Belay N, the summit
T+1 somebody starts descending
T+2 etc.
TZ arrive at car
See where the time gets eaten up. In particular, look at time climbing upwards vs. time not climbing upwards. Take notes on why things took so long. For the moment, consider the leader's time climbing upwards as non-negotiable.
7. Go and do the longest route you can safely tackle (start early). If you are doing two or three pitch climbs, find yourself a moderate Grade III. If you are doing grade IIIs, find yourself a nice Grade IV, or a long and easy III. Do pitch after pitch, until you have it dialed. Look at your party's speed in meters per hour. Simulclimbing easier ground, a party might hit 200 or 300 m/h. Can you hit half that climbing one at a time? Unlikely. 50 meters per hour is pretty good nearish your YDS limit. The climb might require 30 meters per hour. See if your speed increases in the second half of the climb.
8. Now go back to your local crag and do as many single pitch climbs as you can in a day - if you're strong, the famous "Half Dome Day" of 2000' of vertical, or "El Cap Day" of 3000' of vertical. Now take your focus toward those transitions (see that Moving Faster DVD again). I will bet it will take a lot of practice before you can lead and descend 10 one pitch climbs as fast as you can do 1 ten pitch climb. That's what you need to do.
9. Go aid climbing. Nothing tricky, just A1 with your existing rack. This will get your gear skills honed.
10. Go back to your notes and look for potential sources of improvement in your time. What are your weaknesses? Wasting time trying to 'save' cams at belays? Untying and retying your uncomfortable shoes? Routefinding? Pick your 3 biggest personal weaknesses and try to fix them.
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