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leeper_z
Aug 5, 2002, 4:02 AM
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Hi,
I'd like to know if anyone has experienced failures when belaying with the GriGri? By failures I mean the cam failing to rotate and lock off the rope during a fall, or the cam prematurly rotating when only slight pressure is released by the climber. I was also quite curious to know if anyone has ever experimented with a backup system for the GriGri, like a belay plate in a strategic location incase of a GriGri failure.
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beyond_gravity
Aug 5, 2002, 4:11 AM
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You should not have to worry about a gri gri failing. Just because you have the cam there doesn't mean you can wack off, you still want your brake hand on the rope when belaying with the gri gri. If your brake hand is on the rope the cam will allways lock (unless the rope is thin and slippery). in that case you should not be using a gri gri.
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daisuke
Aug 5, 2002, 4:23 AM
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B_G is right, the hype surrounding gri gris is huge, even if they do fail they're still safe to use. I've only heard of one case of it not working and the truth is I even doubt that one, gri gri's don't work with ropes under 10mm so the failure to lock was probably related to that.
way too many things are overdone or hyped up, that includes biner gates opening in a fall, that's probably just hype created by the climbing companies to push wiregates over the solid gates (the only real advantage is lighter weight) since the actual probabilities of it happening are so slim that they're probably a lot less than that of being hit by lightning or being attacked by a white shark. same as the hype the breakfast cereal companies created when they said eggs have cholesterol so ppl would stop having eggs for breakfast and switch to cereal instead. you're going to have a heart attack if you eat like a pig anyway!
D
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wildtrail
Aug 5, 2002, 4:37 AM
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Haven't personally heard of a GriGri failure. However, if you are serious about climbing, you'll get an ATC (if you don't already have one). There are a ton of debates on this device and the fact that still remains the same is that it is not intended for trad (not sure if you are into that) and many other uses, per Petzl. Nice for sport and belaying people of varying weight, but my advice is to dump it and use a real belay device. The commonly used, simplistically styled Black Diamond ATC. This is your BEST bet.
Other than that, like I have said haven't heard of failures personally. I do stress that you get an ATC and learn to use it (once again, assuming that you aren't familure with it).
Steve
[ This Message was edited by: wildtrail on 2002-08-04 21:39 ]
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blindslap
Aug 5, 2002, 6:22 AM
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yeah, just go with the atc. Why have to worry about cams locking, and backups when you can just grab a $16 ATC and Blackdiamondequipment.com They'r way cheaper and a lot less to worry about. Also you can use them no problem for trad. (unlike the GriGri)
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rrrADAM
Aug 5, 2002, 6:28 AM
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I have witnessed a Gri-Gri failure...
Girl dropped her husband at malibu Creek right next to me. Rope was 10.5, and correctly fed thru the device. Her brake hand was not on, as she was told to jump in the air to give a more dynamic belay, and her hand came of during that jump.
I use an ATC. I've got on other peoples' ropes to TR, with a Gri-Gri on it, I just push it down and use the ATC.
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jmlangford
Aug 5, 2002, 6:33 AM
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I am no expert on this but I have seen the gri-gri being used for lead climbing. This struck me as an unsafe use. The AAC Journal I rec'd today had an article by the AAC of Canada which issued a warning against using the gr-gri for lead climbing as it acts statically.
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wildtrail
Aug 5, 2002, 6:42 AM
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Thank you. Finally someone says it! This is what I have been saying this whole time. Hence, its recommendation for sport and top ropes only.
Steve
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philbox
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Aug 5, 2002, 6:46 AM
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Grigris rule for trad and aid. It is all a matter of how it is used.
...Phil...
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jdean
Aug 5, 2002, 11:47 AM
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Yeah, the Gri is only as safe as the person using it. If you learn FUNDAMENTAL BELAYING TECHNIQUE on an ATC first and transfer that training to the Gri, it is just as safe as the ATC in any situation. It's when people start relying solely on the mechanics of the Gri over safe, attentive belaying that trouble usually occurs. I will say this though: I am a sport climber and in most situations want a soft catch when I whip (to keep from shattering my ankles on the wall). If my belayer gets yanked into a rock and it knocks him/her out, I would like to know that there is at least a chance that something (the Gri Gri) is backing them up to keep me from decking. I haven't met a person yet who can keep their brake hand on the rope while knocked unconscious.
M@
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caveclimber
Aug 5, 2002, 12:23 PM
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Never seen a Gri-Gri fail, I use mine for self belay on TR. It works great. I also have a ATC for belaying partners it works great as well .
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leeper_z
Aug 5, 2002, 1:52 PM
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Thanks guys and gals,
I've been using a ATC for about a year and a half and a figure 8 before that. I was just looking for way to add an extra amount of safty so that my climber could worry about climbing instead of the belay setup.
Thanks alot for your responses!
Braden
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anth
Aug 5, 2002, 1:54 PM
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rrradam,
you can keep the gri-gri's cam from engaging if you pull the rope through it slowly. it sounds like that's what happened in the accident you describe - the simultaneous fall, jump and user error (brake hand off the rope) allowed the rope to slide past the cam with insufficient force to engage it.
i strongly suspect that if you keep your break hand on the rope, this won't happen. (i.e. rtfm, and do what it says).
when used properly, gri-gris are just fine for sport and gym climbing.
-anthony
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jt512
Aug 5, 2002, 5:10 PM
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Never in my life have I seen so much misinformation about a subject as dangerous as rock climbing, as I've seen this morning alone on the site. Some days I feel like a janitor at a carnival, sweeping up the mess left by all the kiddies. Let's start with the following garbage:
Quote:...gri gri's don't work with ropes under 10mm so the failure to lock was probably related to that.
Yes, they do work with ropes under 10 mm. Petzl officially approves 9.7 mm ropes. With ropes under 10 mm, you have to treat the gri-gri as an ATC. The gri-gri will not lock up as securely, so you have to lock off manually.
Quote:...way too many things are overdone or hyped up, that includes biner gates opening in a fall...
Bullshit. Biner gates open in falls frequently. I have witnessed it twice when I have fallen, and those are just the ones I happen to have been in postition to see. I also know of two instances when draws came off the bolt entirely during the fall.
Quote:...that's probably just hype created by the climbing companies to push wiregates over the solid gates (the only real advantage is lighter weight) since the actual probabilities of it happening are so slim that they're probably a lot less than that of being hit by lightning or being attacked by a white shark.
And you know this how? All you have to do to prove to yourself that gates open during a fall is to take a solid gate biner and whack the spine of the biner against your hand, simulating the biner banging against a rock under impact. You can easily hear the gate snap open and shut. In fact, you don't even have to hit the biner against anything; just give it a good little whip and stop it suddenly. You'll still hear the gate whiplash.
-Jay
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fitz
Aug 5, 2002, 6:50 PM
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I think jmlangford's point is a valid one. The gri-gri locks hard and is very strong. This does potentially raise the impact force on the topmost protection and the climber in a lead situation.
It is not a matter of technique, it is a matter of mechanics and math. This is not a problem in sport climbing, where the protection is (generally, though I've never been as blindly confident in bolts as many) bomber.
But, in traditional climbing, with potentially longer runouts and sketchier pro, it is certainly a consideration. That said, it is great for belaying (and hauling) a second in multi-pitch situation. Especially aid climbing, where weight is less of a consideration. With the second, the much lower dynamic factor of the device isn't really an issue, since the falls are much smaller and the anchor better be atomic anyway.
-jjf
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mountainmonkey
Aug 5, 2002, 7:24 PM
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Also dont forget that the cam will come undone if the belayer is yanked up to the first protection piece. This can happen if the belayer is lighter than the climber or the belayer is trying to give a dynamic belay.
In my opinion - GriGris are ok for some sport climbs and great for aid just be sure you know how to use it and KEEP A BREAK HAND ON THE ROPE to lock it off. If you treat it like an ATC it will always work. Dont use it for trad.
casey
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wildtrail
Aug 5, 2002, 7:27 PM
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Phil and Matt,
That may be for you. But, the fact remains the same. The GriGri is NOT recommended for trad or aid due to the "static" capabilites and anyone who climbs knows that "static" is bad on pro. I don't want an arguement, or flames, but those using it for aid and trad aren't using it properly and suggesting others do what the manufacturer tells you not to do is a really bad idea. I'm know you guys are experienced climbers and I trust that, but that doesn't mean you are using the GriGri for its intended applications. I have a PMI sponsorship and they are directly linked to Petzl. This is a question I have researched. Its intended design and use was for Top Rope belaying for people of varying weights and recommeded for "sport" climbing.
Whatever. Just do me a favor guys. Climb safe and have fun!!!
Steve
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bridgeit
Aug 5, 2002, 7:29 PM
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I was at a climbing clinic at the Wild Iris during the Int'l climbers festival in Lander. One of the instructors was showing that it was okay to take a fall and they were using a GriGri. She decked and the rope was at least 10. I am not sure what caused the failure but I know that she wasn't feeling to great after that fall. For being such a "fool proof" belay device this doesn't make me feel to safe. I had just purchased a GriGri the day before and I have not used it since that incident. I will be purchasing an ATC now. Anyone want to buy a brand new GriGri???
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wildtrail
Aug 5, 2002, 7:37 PM
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This is why I don't use devices like this. Climbing has risks and is inherently dangerous as it is. So, the best device is always one that is functional, but simplistic. Like the ATC. When climbing, the last thing I want is to have to remember one more thing or worry about one more thing. The ATC aleviates that worry on belay. Solid belay device (the best made) and really simple to use. I say stick with the simple and reliable style of the ATC. The only thing that can go wrong is you.
Steve
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theclimer
Aug 5, 2002, 7:42 PM
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Quoth Wildtrail:
"Phil and Matt,
That may be for you. But, the fact remains the same. The GriGri is NOT recommended for trad or aid due to the "static" capabilites and anyone who climbs knows that "static" is bad on pro."
I assume you're not talking about the specific case (hyped by PTPP) of using the Grigri to clean an aid pitch? In that case, any impact force taken during a fall would be minimal, no?
Jeff
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jt512
Aug 5, 2002, 8:34 PM
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Quote:One of the instructors was showing that it was okay to take a fall and they were using a GriGri. She decked and the rope was at least 10. I am not sure what caused the failure but I know that she wasn't feeling to great after that fall. For being such a "fool proof" belay device this doesn't make me feel to safe.
If the belayer was using an ATC and the leader decked would you blame the ATC or the belayer?
-Jay
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wes_allen
Aug 5, 2002, 9:44 PM
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Damn people. A gri-gri is just another tool. It has many cool uses, but you have to know how to use it. Sport, trad, aid, or whatever, it works fine, if you know what you are doing. As far as "more force" on your top piece while trad climbing, the only question I have is "how much additional force will a gri-gri place on the top piece". If you are climbing on pro that bad, then it doesn't seem like the belay device is going to really matter all that much.
Just because you think you know something (even if you do not), does not mean that is the only way. I have fallen and caught falls on atc'c and gri-gris on sport and trad. No difference. But using a gri-gri is easier when someone is working a route for sure.
This is just another thread on this site with bad beta given by people who spend more time reading about climbing then actually climbing.
Wes
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wildtrail
Aug 5, 2002, 9:55 PM
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Ah, yes Jeff (and Wes),
That isn't my point really, but then again I may not have one!
No, I have given up this debate. It is right versus right and that makes it impossible.
Is the GriGri for said uses: No.
Is it used for said uses successfully: Yes.
What is the point? I could go on and on (ask Nate), but I won't. The truth here is that there are real concerns. However, isn't that the truth about climbing in general? Case and point. So, what the hey? It really doesn't matter what side of the fence you stand on in this issue. Either way, you are right and make solid points.
Pretty much, "The End". Don't you think?
Steve
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mountainmonkey
Aug 5, 2002, 10:47 PM
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Wes - Got to the Petzl website and try the fall simulator. Try: climber=80kg, climber 5m out, first piece 1m out, first piece as a nut or a friend, and belay as a GriGri AND as a sticht plate. You will see the difference. There is a reason Petzl gives a warning about using a GriGri in trad climbing.
http://www.petzl.com/petzl/publicActiv?id=GDEPAROI#
The GriGri gives most beginners (and some unknowledgeable but experienced climbers) a FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY because of its autolocking mechanism. The GriGri should only be used for lead climbing after an ATC has been mastered.
Casey
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jt512
Aug 5, 2002, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
As far as "more force" on your top piece while trad climbing, the only question I have is "how much additional force will a gri-gri place on the top piece".
2.5 times as much: 7.5 kN vs. 3 kN.
Quote:
If you are climbing on pro that bad, then it doesn't seem like the belay device is going to really matter all that much.
Check the ratings of your small to medium wired nuts, and see if you still think that.
-Jay (glad I'm wearing my high-top boots in here today)
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