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mingleefu
Nov 1, 2005, 12:04 AM
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I'm starting a new post so I don't drift too hard from another one.
What kind of wrangling tricks have you found that use minimal gear and facilitate rapid deployment and breakdown? What other useful, but less common methods are good, or just plain fun, to have in the quiver?
In another (third) thread about strategy for faster multi-pitch climbing, I remember someone said that doing without the cordelette speeds up the transition from belaying the leader to being the following climber. I assume this is done by making an anchor out of rope. Tossing an anchor together with a couple of clove-hitches is great for a vertical crack, but what other tricks can be used if the gear is not in a vertical line?
I remember something from one of Long's climbing Anchors books about a self-equalizing rope trick that involved running the rope through a locking biner that was clipped through a fig-of-8 knot near the harness's tie in point. It was a cordelette-style concept, but used only the rope. I tried doing this a couple times, but it seemed to take up a whole lot of rope, and since I like to stretch that bugger on multipitch, I never have enough left. Consequently, I haven't gotten good enough at it to make it faster or more convenient than a cordelette.
So Let's have it. Assuming three non-linear pieces, What's your preferred method of making a fast and minimal anchor? Or- What are some rope-only anchor tricks you've picked up along the way?
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petsfed
Nov 1, 2005, 12:44 AM
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One of the best tricks I've found for speeding up belays is to look very carefully (and get good at doing it quickly) for the sneakiest yet strongest anchor points. Routes with big trees are excellent for that. One sling, backup with a cam and BOOM, your belay's good to go. Why set 5 marginal pieces when there are 3 bomber placements? Proper organization helps, as does quickly setting up the autoblocking belay device for belaying the second. Its italic because its part of the secret. Used properly, one of these puppies frees up your other hand to organize gear, eat food, etc, things you might otherwise do while your partner was sitting around waiting.
I can't stress efficient reorganization enough. Sure you can just clip things where ever when you're at the top and ready to cruise, but you can't do that halfway up the climb. If your cordolette/utility crabs/belay device are always in the exact same spot and always racked the same way, if you lose time, its because you're using them less than efficiently, not because they are intrinsically slow. Also, building an anchor with the rope works some times, but not others. You cannot expect every belay to be perfect for one method or the other. In fact, focusing on one to the exclusion of the other (eg not carrying a cordolette) can slow you down just as much. The best skill, in other words, is to quickly assess the most effective, time- and gear-efficient belay possible for each situation. Build it, stack the rope, start belaying and get ready to transfer the rack before the second gets there (having the rack on a gear sling helps for that too). It'll save tons of time.
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tattooed_climber
Nov 1, 2005, 1:16 AM
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thx rgold...i've never seen those two techniques for using the rope as cordlette
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mingleefu
Nov 1, 2005, 3:46 AM
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yeah, Rgold- that's what I'm talking about.
What about this variation on what rgold did... what if you do the following:
At Left: with All three pieces TOTALLY bomber, biners opposite and opposed. the tail at right could be used for redirecting the belay. Self-equalizing anchor, yes? It requires that all three pieces are bomber- but that isn't all that uncommon to have a totally truck anchor, right?
At Right: A case with two bolts. The bolts are solid, and the rope we figure to be bombproof.
http://img.photobucket.com/...zed-rope-anchor3.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/...zed-rope-anchor2.jpg
waddaya think?
EDIT (days later): Those two anchor setups are BAD!! If the piece at the far right (either image) fails, the whole anchor will unravel catastrophically. But I'll leave the images up for in the interest of learning.
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tattooed_climber
Nov 1, 2005, 4:31 AM
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mingleefu...it works, but if a peice blows, it'll shockload the whole system.....should be staticly equilized......and i know simplier ways to do that...though, always good to learn another something can be done :P
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altelis
Nov 1, 2005, 4:36 AM
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from my experience i've found that if you simply try to use your rope as a cordellette you will waste time and rope, but if you use your rope instead of a cordellette you will be an efficient and fast anchor builder.
a fast and easy way to build a bomber anchor with a rope is to use a single or double runner to magic x two pieces, extend the third if necessary. at a comfortable distance away from you tie either a double loop figure eight on a bight or a double loop bowline. clip on loop to the magic x and the other to the third piece. on the other side of the knot (the one going to the second) tie a figure eight on a bight and clip the autoblocker there. easy.
only works if you are swinging leads....
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mingleefu
Nov 1, 2005, 4:38 AM
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yeah, I know it'll shockload the system. that's why I said 3 bomber pieces.
Mostly I'm trying to stoke the furnace a bit to see if there are any other brilliant ways to make an anchor with just rope and biners. Or even some ways to put an anchor together that I haven't thought of. I'm bored at work again, and I hate to think that I already know all the rudiments. someone show me something New! functional but Impractical?? Great!! Entertain me!!
*sigh... Mondays...
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tattooed_climber
Nov 1, 2005, 4:41 AM
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In reply to: yeah, I know it'll shockload the system. that's why I said 3 bomber pieces. Mostly I'm trying to stoke the furnace a bit to see if there are any other brilliant ways to make an anchor with just rope and biners. Or even some ways to put an anchor together that I haven't thought of. I'm bored at work again, and I hate to think that I already know all the rudiments. someone show me something New! functional but Impractical?? Great!! Entertain me!! *sigh... Mondays...
true true....you know what. i personaly find it ot be just as fast and easy to use cord.....cord is cheap, disposable and it has about 1,000,000 uses
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hopper
Nov 1, 2005, 4:47 AM
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rgold, is there a reason the "close" biners are clove hitched as oppsed to the pro biners? If the pro was hitched, a failure of one of the sections of rope wouldn't compromise the anchor. On another note, why not clove hitch all points? Just not worth the time?
--JB
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mingleefu
Nov 1, 2005, 5:12 AM
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In reply to: a fast and easy way to build a bomber anchor with a rope is to use a single or double runner to magic x two pieces, extend the third if necessary. at a comfortable distance away from you tie either a double loop figure eight on a bight or a double loop bowline. clip on loop to the magic x and the other to the third piece. on the other side of the knot (the one going to the second) tie a figure eight on a bight and clip the autoblocker there. easy.
Like So..?
http://img.photobucket.com/...e-not-cordelette.jpg
I like it.
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rgold
Nov 1, 2005, 5:56 AM
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In reply to: is there a reason the "close" biners are clove hitched as oppsed to the pro biners? If the pro was hitched, a failure of one of the sections of rope wouldn't compromise the anchor. On another note, why not clove hitch all points? Just not worth the time?
Look carefully. The anchor doesn't suffer any extension if one or two of the pieces fails, so clove hitches aren't needed on the pro. The main reason for putting them on the nearby biners is ease of adjustment. You can rapidly get everything tensioned properly even when all the pro is out of reach. Of course, you can leave the clove hitches off the nearby biners and get a self-equalizing anchor, but the potential extensions in case of failure of a piece might be unacceptable.
I might add that these set-ups are faster than cordelettes, especially if the anchor spacing means the cordelette has to be supplemented with other slings in order to reach the pro. They adjust better than cordelettes and are less likely to have a slack arm because of the handling of the power point knot. They aren't good if you are guiding or leading in blocks, and of course, they do use up rope.
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tradman
Nov 1, 2005, 11:46 AM
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These methods look excellent!
I was taught to use rgold's and I know it works, but the others look worth knowing!
The only other thing I'd add is that when you're belaying, especially on multipitch climbs, you should really be working to make sure everything's neat and ready for your second when he arrives - lap the rope over the anchor rather than just dropping it on the floor, use your free hand to organise any gear you plan to hand over if you're swinging leads, grab a quick look at the topo if necessary and so on.
It sounds really rudimentary, but you'd be amazed how many climbers you'll see at belay stations just standing around with the gear and rope in a mess around them then scrambling around when their parter arrives. Of course you should be paying attention to what your partner's doing, but a little simple housekeeping at the belay while waiting can save lots of time!
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toml
Nov 1, 2005, 2:52 PM
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In reply to: I might add that these set-ups are faster than cordelettes, especially if the anchor spacing means the cordelette has to be supplemented with other slings in order to reach the pro. They adjust better than cordelettes and are less likely to have a slack arm because of the handling of the power point knot. They aren't good if you are guiding or leading in blocks, and of course, they do use up rope.
You can save on rope by extending the anchor points, too, so the setup can be useful even if rope is at somewhat of a premium.
And if leading in blocks, clip yourself into the powerpoint with a sling and untie your end, easily accomplished before your second arrives. Not such a huge disadvantage if you plan ahead.
Another disadvantage though is that you're basically committed to continuing. If your partner decides to bail, or falls off the next lead and needs to be lowered to the ground on a multipitch climb due to injuries, you're going to have great fun getting out.
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jimdavis
Nov 4, 2005, 4:06 AM
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In reply to: yeah, I know it'll shockload the system. that's why I said 3 bomber pieces. Mostly I'm trying to stoke the furnace a bit to see if there are any other brilliant ways to make an anchor with just rope and biners. Or even some ways to put an anchor together that I haven't thought of. I'm bored at work again, and I hate to think that I already know all the rudiments. someone show me something New! functional but Impractical?? Great!! Entertain me!! *sigh... Mondays...
your looking at self equalized versues a pre-equalized...each have their time and place.
Cheers,
Jim
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mingleefu
Nov 4, 2005, 4:18 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: yeah, I know it'll shockload the system. that's why I said 3 bomber pieces. your looking at self equalized versues a pre-equalized...each have their time and place.
To everything, turn, turn turn...
One thing I realized.. since I posted those images the other day- is that if the piece at right blows (the one with the clove hitch), whether it is a bolt or a piece of pro, the anchor catastrophically fails with both setups!! You're basically looking at the whole thing unravelling on you. Life is better with clove hitches, methinks.
again, to be clear, the images I posted are not good ideas. In fact, I think they are bad ideas.
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altelis
Nov 4, 2005, 5:07 AM
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mingleefu, thats exactly right
its worked superbly well for me....
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jacobbelsher
Nov 4, 2005, 6:21 AM
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mingleefu and rgold. those setups look unnecessarily clusterf**ked IMO. though they are creative I suppose. for fast and efficient setups use the slider-X, or an equalized fig 8, or just a series of clove hitches on the rope (slack permitting). If you need to escape a belay or an anchor, learn the munter mule and klemhiest/bachman/prussic knots, as detailed by john long and others.
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curt
Nov 4, 2005, 6:38 AM
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In reply to: mingleefu and rgold. those setups look unnecessarily clusterf**ked IMO. though they are creative I suppose. for fast and efficient setups use the slider-X, or an equalized fig 8, or just a series of clove hitches on the rope (slack permitting). If you need to escape a belay or an anchor, learn the munter mule and klemhiest/bachman/prussic knots, as detailed by john long and others.
Thanks for adding something wrong and useless to this thread. :boring:
Curt
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mcfoley
Nov 4, 2005, 6:57 AM
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In reply to: .... a fast and easy way to build a bomber anchor with a rope is to use a single or double runner to magic x two pieces, extend the third if necessary. at a comfortable distance away from you tie either a double loop figure eight on a bight or a double loop bowline. clip on loop to the magic x and the other to the third piece. on the other side of the knot (the one going to the second) tie a figure eight on a bight and clip the autoblocker there. easy. only works if you are swinging leads....
Yeah, I second the double loop 8...
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rgold
Nov 4, 2005, 7:49 AM
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In reply to: those setups look unnecessarily clusterf**ked IMO.
Clusterf**kage is in the eye of the beholder. I think mine look positively sleek. De gustibus non disputandum.
In reply to: though they are creative I suppose.
Thanks, I suppose, for supposedly supposing.
In reply to: for fast and efficient setups use the slider-X...
A slider-x on three pieces? However, if you're up for the possible ride, you can leave all but the last clove hitches off the power point biners in the photos and get a self-equalizing rig. Or use the Trango Thingy, which elevates my homely rope clusterf**ck to museum-quality rigging---Nouvelle Clusterie, as they say on the continent.
As for efficiency, if you're adept at the arcane art of clovehitchology, then the pictured set-ups are faster than anything else once there are three or more pieces in your anchor. If one or more of the three pieces is out of reach, there isn't even any contest.
In reply to: ...or an equalized fig 8...
In what, a cordelette? The point was to illustrate anchors constructed with the rope. And the "equalized" figure eight is harder and slower to "equalize" than the pictured set-ups.
In reply to: ...or just a series of clove hitches on the rope (slack permitting).
Maybe for three pieces in a vertical line. If your anchor pieces are arranged horizontally, sequential clove-hitching is considerably inferior to the posted solutions since it applies the full load to only one piece.
In reply to: If you need to escape a belay or an anchor, learn the munter mule and klemhiest/bachman/prussic knots, as detailed by john long and others.
A topic for a different thread (and it has indeed been covered in mucho detailo already).
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dirtineye
Nov 4, 2005, 3:07 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: those setups look unnecessarily clusterf**ked IMO. Clusterf**kage is in the eye of the beholder. I think mine look positively sleek. De gustibus non disputandum. In reply to: though they are creative I suppose. Thanks, I suppose, for supposedly supposing. In reply to: for fast and efficient setups use the slider-X... A slider-x on three pieces? However, if you're up for the possible ride, you can leave all but the last clove hitches off the power point biners in the photos and get a self-equalizing rig. Or use the Trango Thingy, which elevates my homely rope clusterf**ck to museum-quality rigging--- Nouvelle Clusterie, as they say on the continent. As for efficiency, if you're adept at the arcane art of clovehitchology, then the pictured set-ups are faster than anything else once there are three or more pieces in your anchor. If one or more of the three pieces is out of reach, there isn't even any contest. In reply to: ...or an equalized fig 8... In what, a cordelette? The point was to illustrate anchors constructed with the rope. And the "equalized" figure eight is harder and slower to "equalize" than the pictured set-ups. In reply to: ...or just a series of clove hitches on the rope (slack permitting). Maybe for three pieces in a vertical line. If your anchor pieces are arranged horizontally, sequential clove-hitching is considerably inferior to the posted solutions since it applies the full load to only one piece. In reply to: If you need to escape a belay or an anchor, learn the munter mule and klemhiest/bachman/prussic knots, as detailed by john long and others. A topic for a different thread (and it has indeed been covered in mucho detailo already).
Proof that mathematicians have a highly developed sense of humor.
Rgold, your clovester-feckage is greatly appreciated.
I don't think most people understand just hjow simple it is to adjust a clove hitch. Furthermore, there is no knot simpler to remove than a clove on a biner.
I'll stick with my multi-loop knots (bowlines & figure 8s) with cloves in all the right places.
On ne sait jamais.
Au sujet de jacobbelsher, ca ne fait rien.
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climbsomething
Nov 5, 2005, 10:32 AM
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One of the funniest guys I know is a mathematician. I'm sorry, statistician. Is that like the TV news guys calling all climbers hikers and hikers climbers?
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bobruef
Nov 7, 2005, 9:37 PM
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sereNE
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