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caughtinside
Nov 3, 2005, 6:40 PM
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Haven't done it yet. (furiously knocking on wood)
But I've come close a couple times. The funny thing is, I had always kind of assumed that it would be easier to fix a smaller cam than a big one, because there's so much more expansion range in the larger cams. I even made fun of fshizzle when he fixed maculated's #4 camalot. :P
But the last couple climbs I've been on, I came perilously close to fixing my #4 and #5 BD (wide stuff, *shudder*)
I think I have a tendency on that wider stuff to pull back the trigger all the way, and just fire that sucker into a big crack, preferably as far over my head as possible. I think I tend to be more comfortable on more 'regular' sized cracks, and put more thought into placing cams, as opposed to just stuffing them.
Anyway, I had a couple nervous moments, and had to bash the #4 out with the side of my hand.
I don't know, I guess I should be more careful, and not pull the trigger all the way and just plunge it till it fits. But man I feel insecure on the wide cracks!
Any thoughts?
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mcfoley
Nov 3, 2005, 6:47 PM
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I got a LT Blue Metolius Power cam stuck out at j-tree.
I was hang doging on it and it walked way back...my friend, cleaning couldn't get it out.
So we rapped down and tried to work it out...NO WAY...Only way that piece was comming home with me was in pieces.
I'll have to go check next sunday to see if anyone got it out....?
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horseonwheels
Nov 3, 2005, 6:49 PM
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I also have a tedency to overcam my larger units as compared to my smaller ones. Also, the larger cams have more play in the lobes (less spring tension) making them more likely to walk and get stuck. While I've never lost a cam, I do notice that most of the fixed ones I see are in hand sizes. Maybe that's just because those get placed more often...who knows.
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korntera
Nov 3, 2005, 6:51 PM
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At carver cliffs in Clackamas there is a #2 Rock Empire stuck in the crack. I didn't get it there but it is not only more overcamed that you can pull it with the action, but somebody cut the sling off of it and its 2" inside a 1.5" crack that is super deep.
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korntera
Nov 3, 2005, 6:53 PM
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At carver cliffs in Clackamas there is a #2 Rock Empire stuck in the crack. I didn't get it there but it is not only more overcamed that you can pull it with the action, but somebody cut the sling off of it and its 2" inside a 1.5" crack that is super deep.
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vegastradguy
Nov 3, 2005, 7:14 PM
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me, i'm always testing the skills of my seconds with my green and blue aliens- mostly because it always seems that i'm most sketched when i'm on the thin stuff. havent gotten one stuck yet, but have had a couple of close calls. one time neither of my seconds could retrieve the cam, but the leader of the party behind us retrieved it quickly!
i've never really had a problem on the wide stuff, myself- i'm pretty comfy from hands to chimney sizes for the most part (well, up to my limit anyway...) although i'm sure there's more than a few offwidths out there that would eat me alive!
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blakester
Nov 3, 2005, 7:19 PM
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I got a #4 (orange) rock empire cam stuck, after using it as part of an equalized belay anchor! we came back the next week with a hammer and funkness device, pounded away on that thing, and STILL could not get it! We rapped off of the dang thing and went home. :lol:
I'd rather get a cam stuck than just forget it at a belay changeover somwhere (that happened too)
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joshy8200
Nov 3, 2005, 7:32 PM
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In reply to: But the last couple climbs I've been on, I came perilously close to fixing my #4 and #5 BD (wide stuff, *shudder*) I think I have a tendency on that wider stuff to pull back the trigger all the way, and just fire that sucker into a big crack, preferably as far over my head as possible. I think I tend to be more comfortable on more 'regular' sized cracks, and put more thought into placing cams, as opposed to just stuffing them.
You've pin pointed the problem. Now...tell me what routes you're going to be doing. I'll gladly come work on those big cams you get stuck. :twisted:
A buddy of mine is notorious for overcamming. The key to getting them unstuck...is working the cam back out slowly. If your cams are walking into positions that get them stuck...you can be more aware of your placements and find placements that will limit the cam from walking. And I looked for the old Climbing tech tip that showed some diagrams about retrieving stuck gear...but there is no longer a link. It just showed how to use your nut tool and the wire loop of a nut to reach out of reach cam triggers...showed using a nut tool to moved fixed cam lobes. In other words, sometimes you just have to be patient and creative.
Ohh...and let us all know where you get those cams stuck :wink:
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davidji
Nov 3, 2005, 7:40 PM
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In reply to: Any thoughts?
For myself, I'm thinking of carrying a heavier nut tool, at least for harder climbs where leader is more likely to weld-in gear. He may not want that piece back after though! I've got a lost arrow that's about as long as my old Wild Country Nut Pick, a little shorter than my USHBA nut tool. And weighs more than both put together. It's got a nut-tool-like notch near the tip too. If it's not too short, it should do the job.
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markc
Nov 3, 2005, 8:31 PM
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There were only a couple rules pounded into my head when I started seconding. The first was figure out how a piece went in before trying to take it out. The second was to never fully retract a cam (either for placing or removing). If it's fully retracted and you stick it, you're going to have a hell of a time getting it out.
Luckily, with some larger cams there's more play in the lobes than you can pull with the trigger. Larger cracks are also more accepting of nut tools, so you can get in behind those lobes and try to work it back out. I'm still not great at getting booty cams, but I've only lost one very small unit. It was one of the Rock Empire micro-robots, and there was only one lobe that allowed any movement. I considered the effort to clean it too great compared to the cost of replacement. Someone's mileage obviously varied, as it was gone on my next trip.
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markc
Nov 3, 2005, 9:33 PM
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In reply to: A buddy of mine is notorious for overcamming.
As is a partner of mine. He gets the most confidence from the largest cam placed in the smallest constriction. It can be frustrating to say the least. Unfortunately, frustration rarely assists with cleaning stuck cams. It's generally patience and persistence that wins the day. When I reach the belay, I make it a point to say things like, "We sure were lucky to get that last cam out. Sucker barely moved when I squeezed the trigger!"
Still, when I'm on lead it's my job to keep myself safe. It's the second's job to clean the gear. I try to make things relatively easy, but if I'm gripped and she comes up to a tight cam or stuck nut, she can take a hang to clean. I'll feel guilty, but not too guilty.
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gullwing19
Nov 3, 2005, 10:12 PM
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my suggestion is to learn how to place pro. Continuously overcamming your cams when you place them is a beginner mistake made when you think that the more cammed a unit is...the better hold.
I actually love it when you guys do this because they're usually not that hard to remove. A little elbow grease and some bloody knuckles have scored me more than a few cams in my days. I guess I should say thanks.
All praise to the gear gods.
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brent_e
Nov 3, 2005, 10:27 PM
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i've had a 3/4 DMM walk back (not slung long enough.....one of the first few routes I climbed). It took some time, but I got it out!
same day, same route, a buddy brabbed a friend (13/4) and just stuffed.....immediately stuck. I used an ice tool to get that one out...it's a little worn but, of course, not in the usable range.
Brent
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caughtinside
Nov 3, 2005, 11:17 PM
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In reply to: my suggestion is to learn how to place pro. Continuously overcamming your cams when you place them is a beginner mistake made when you think that the more cammed a unit is...the better hold.
Hey, thanks for the tip. Here's one for you: learn to read a whole post before responding. :D
I pointed out that it was only with my larger cams, which I think stems from my discomfort in, and lack of wide crack technique.
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dirtineye
Nov 4, 2005, 12:26 AM
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In reply to: my suggestion is to learn how to place pro. Continuously overcamming your cams when you place them is a beginner mistake made when you think that the more cammed a unit is...the better hold. I actually love it when you guys do this because they're usually not that hard to remove. A little elbow grease and some bloody knuckles have scored me more than a few cams in my days. I guess I should say thanks. All praise to the gear gods.
Moron alert.
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striker
Nov 4, 2005, 12:40 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: my suggestion is to learn how to place pro. Continuously overcamming your cams when you place them is a beginner mistake made when you think that the more cammed a unit is...the better hold. I actually love it when you guys do this because they're usually not that hard to remove. A little elbow grease and some bloody knuckles have scored me more than a few cams in my days. I guess I should say thanks. All praise to the gear gods. Moron alert.
I will also refer to caughtinside's original post.
"I think I have a tendency on that wider stuff to pull back the trigger all the way, and just fire that sucker into a big crack, preferably as far over my head as possible. I think I tend to be more comfortable on more 'regular' sized cracks, and put more thought into placing cams, as opposed to just stuffing them. "
while it really sucks to over cam, it is usually because of an inablility to use it properly. it is unnecessary and demeaning to call somebody a moron because they make a valid point, which, is to the benifit of many RC viewers.
gullwing19's point is valid. if your placing your gear as far above your head as you can, will it be a bomber placement? could you get a even better placement at eye level even though you may be sacrificing and adding an extra 2-2 1/2 feet to your fall?
aaron
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petsfed
Nov 4, 2005, 1:36 AM
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The only cams I've left behind are the ones fixed by previous parties (although I did retrieve a 3.5 camalot that was dropped into an offwidth from above) and my practically brand new Z5 Zero cam. I lost it in (get this) Fantasia out at Vedauwoo. Its not fixed, per se, but its still out there. And one of these days I'm going to plumb the depths and retrieve it.
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caughtinside
Nov 4, 2005, 1:37 AM
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In reply to: I will also refer to caughtinside's original post. "I think I have a tendency on that wider stuff to pull back the trigger all the way, and just fire that sucker into a big crack, preferably as far over my head as possible"
Well, if you're going to refer to my original post, why don't you at least post the whole quote? You posted my description of the situation, and ignored the subsequent sentence, where I did some analysis of that situation, and replaced it with some highly speculative analysis of your own.
You and mr. gullwing seem to have a tough time with reading comprehension.
Stuck cams? Yer doin' it wrong! seems to be the extent of your analysis. Why don't you do us a favor and take time to read the entire post before you reply. Thank you. 8^)
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striker
Nov 4, 2005, 1:40 AM
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hey, no need to get angry, no wonder the world is full of hate.
besides, why don't we just let all the viewers look at your original post and judge for themselves.
my point is made
aaron
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caughtinside
Nov 4, 2005, 2:13 AM
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Your point is made? Let me tell you a little about my point:
I started this post because I noticed a shortcoming I had with regard to placing larger cams. Not small cams. Not medium cams.
For some strange reason, (like to generate a discussion about climbing) I posted about my difficulties with overcamming the large cams. I also mentioned that I did it because of certain issues I have with large cracks. I don't like them. I'm not good at climbing them. I know what my problem is, is that I am not usually confident in my stance while I'm placing larger cams, so I tend towards a nervousness-driven overcamming.
This doesn't happen every time I place large cams, just when I'm not comfortable.
So when guys like you and gullwing make a generic comment like "learn to place pro properly" it doesn't help at all, and tells me you didn't even understand what I'm talking about. So I decline to respect your comments on the issue.
I suppose I am not even looking for advice or suggestions, as I know what I'm doing incorrectly, and what I need to do to fix it. I just happen to take umbrage when people miss the point completely and tell me I'm making a beginner mistake. Thanks for the tip. Sheesh.
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stymingersfink
Nov 4, 2005, 2:17 AM
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In reply to: Haven't done it yet. (furiously knocking on wood)
Any thoughts?
Yeah, a few. I wish more people would get the buggers stuck and walk away before they trash them completely. There's (nearly) nothing more satisfying than pulling a fixed cam out and being able to clip it to your rack (after inspecting it of course) for use on the next pitch.
BUUUT, if you're going to fix 'em, go ahead and fix 'em good, just don't trash the clip in point.
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gunkiemike
Nov 4, 2005, 2:32 AM
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OK, who's retrieved more cams than they have stuck?
I have never fixed a cam, but have removed 11 so far*, the most recent being just last week. There are a few tricks, but mostly it's just being careful and patient as you reverse the way it went in, one lobe tweak at a time.
* 12 actually, but that old Friend was busted and came out useless for anything but hanging on the wall.
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iltripp
Nov 4, 2005, 2:36 AM
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I've never gotten one stuck either, but I've come closest with my bigger cams. It seems to me that the big ones tend to walk a little more than the little guys. Maybe it's just the way that I'm placing them...
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davidji
Nov 4, 2005, 10:54 PM
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Dave,
You've sure never had a problem with welding in cams when we've climbed together. The way you've described this issue, I expect you've solved it. I guess I'd rather not find out though: I'm so not in the mood to climb wide stuff. Maybe after I forget my last wide climb...
Walking cams up on the big stuff is comforting, as long as you have some gear to leave behind--moving up a critical piece is dicey. Got Bros?
David G
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 5, 2005, 12:00 AM
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It dosen't matter how angy you guys get it still dosen't change the facts. Getting cams stuck and retrieveing them is mostly a skill issue. they get stuck because they are either placed improperly, don't hane a long enough sling on them which causes walking or they get stuck because your second is incompetent. You may not like this but like many politicaly incorect statements it has a lot of truth. In 23 years of climbing 100% of the times that my second has not been able to clean a piece that I placed If i was able to rap back down to the piece I cleaned it. 90% of the time I cleaned it quickly. Suck it up and learn how to place/clean gear 8^)
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