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asandh


Nov 5, 2005, 10:19 PM
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:)


rufusandcompany


Nov 5, 2005, 10:22 PM
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In reply to:
:? ........ another thread offically hijacked by drunken wise guys on a Saturday night. :?

They all eventually meet the same fate. That is the beauty of RC.Com. It is the great equalizer.


slhappy


Nov 5, 2005, 10:33 PM
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brought to my knees.
Forgive me Rc.Com..FORGIVE ME...

still same caps problem as previouse post...
stiil drunk...
stil staurday...


asandh


Nov 5, 2005, 10:42 PM
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ok ...
to get back to some serious slab technique ...
finish your last beer, or scotch or whatever, lay down on your fat belly at top of said slab (arms at your side) and roll over into the abyss, stopping when you reach the ground. Do all this without vomiting and you have truly mastered slab. :)


Partner handtraverse


Nov 6, 2005, 8:00 AM
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Curt wrote / pendereki wrote:
In reply to:
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him a 5.9 slab!
In reply to:
Even better: Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's patience, give him a 5.13 slab (Rainbow Wall). Thanks BH.

In reply to:
BTW - This is one of the best pitches in Eldo.
In reply to:
That's no slab, that thing is overhanging.

http://i9.photobucket.com/...angi/RainbowWall.jpg
OK...I'm about to faint now...

Handtraverse
_____________________________________
"In the confrontatation between the rock and the stream, the stream always wins. Not by strength but by perseverance."


blueeyedclimber


Nov 8, 2005, 5:44 AM
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Drive up to Whitehorse in North Conway, NH. It's a good place to learn slab with routes as low as 5.3-5.5. Then when you master that, you can try some of the runout 10's and 11's.

Josh


rufusandcompany


Nov 8, 2005, 8:36 AM
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In reply to:
Drive up to Whitehorse in North Conway, NH. It's a good place to learn slab with routes as low as 5.3-5.5. Then when you master that, you can try some of the runout 10's and 11's.

Josh

You are correct. Whitehorse and Cathedral Ledge offer slab climbing at its finest. Repo Man, on Cathedral, was my first 5.12 lead, twenty years ago, although I hear that it has been downgraded to 11D.


trenchdigger


Nov 8, 2005, 9:02 AM
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The key to slab is keeping your center of mass above your feet. The more you lean forward onto your hands, the more your feet will want to just slide off of the holds. Ideally, your hands should be just barely touching the wall, helping to keep you balanced. If there are crimps or small holds, pulling out on them will further press your feet into the wall and make them stick to "holds" you never imagined they would. Slab is all about body postion, and it's counterintuitive to most. With vert or overhanging climbing, you want your hips close to the wall. On slab, things are the opposite. The goal in both is to keep your center of mass over your feet. On overhang, that means pressing your hips to the wall, but on slab, it means staying vertical and keeping your weight over your feet. Try it... you'll be amazed what you can stand on with the proper positioning.


azrockclimber


Nov 8, 2005, 9:14 AM
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not a stupid question.

I could go on and on but here is a very important tip..albeit a very simple one.

Go against your natural instinct to lean into the rock..this will reduce the surface area of your shoe that is in contact with the rock plus you will have less body weight over your feet....

instead keep yourself off of the rock with you weight over your feet. Make small moves. Large lunges will decrease your balance and again reduce the area of your shoe that is in contact with the surface of the rock. Trust your rubber. The more weight on your feet the better they will stick.

that might help.


Partner handtraverse


Nov 9, 2005, 7:32 PM
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Yeah, I was going to ask about "small moves" as you said. The slab I mentioned in the beginning is really steep. I'm not sure (at least 'till I get back there) if I will be able to use the balls of my feet. So, is there such a thing as using the tips of your toes?

By the way, a secondary comment here...I had no idea, in the beginning when I asked the question about a flat slab that "slabbing" was actually another form of climbing. (Climbing is a bigger world than I had any idea about...duhh!! :roll: You can spend years developing the different aspects of climbing).

Anyway, back to the toes question...

Handtraverse
_________________________________________

"Mountains are not fair or unfair - they are just dangerous." - Reinhold Messner


rufusandcompany


Nov 9, 2005, 8:59 PM
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Hand,

A few of the points giving in these posts were right on the money, and I'll expand on them. I have climbed up to and including some 5.13 slabs, so I think that some of my techniques can help you.

The easiest way to think about how to center yourself is to draw an imaginary line from dead north through the center of your hips downward to your feet. That is your starting point. The second, but more important rule, is weight distribution. It is very important that you stay light on your feet and keep your center over the weight bearing foot. Be very precise with your movements, because jerky and imprecise placement and movement can easily dislodge you from tenuous edges and smears.

When you place a foot on a micro hold or smear, you must gently and precisely shift your center so that it is over the weight bearing foot. If your center (core of hips) is not directly over the weight bearing foot, you will feel off balance. The out of balance forces can cause involuntary contractions in your muscles, also known as sewing machine leg, which can make it impossible to maintain your balance on very small holds and smears.

Sewing machine leg is a clear sign that you are out of balance, and it is easily remedied by shifting your center back over your weight bearing foot. Remember to also keep breathing and stay calm.

Next time you're out near a slab, try to apply these techniques just a few feet above the ground. With a little practice, you should start to feel what good balance is, and then you will find that your slabs will seem much less daunting. Let me know how it works out for you.


Partner handtraverse


Nov 11, 2005, 5:42 AM
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Thanks rufusandcompany. I understand the concept now. I'll put it to work next time I go out.

One more thing, though. Since, obviously I'm totally new to slabbing, the thought of placing protection (if your're leading) must be a super delicate
performance. So, how is pro handled?

Handtraverse
______________________________________
"Mountains are not fair or unfair - they are just dangerous." - Reinhold Messner


zoratao


Nov 11, 2005, 6:34 AM
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crap double post.


zoratao


Nov 11, 2005, 6:37 AM
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Azrock,

Friction is the normal force (your weight) times the friction constant. (The friction constant is given per material and depends on conditions like temp and a some other factors) Contrary to common conception reducing the area your shoe contacts the rock actually increases the friction. (One reason rock shoes are small and tight.)
You can think of it as a pressure problem if you like. Pressure is the force (your weight again) divided by the area of contact. The greater the pressure the more bonds your rubber will make with the rock. The way to increase your pressure is to put the majority of your body weight over your feet and only use your hands for balance, thus using 100% of your body weight for the normal force. Then you can reduce your footprint and you now have.... greater pressure which equals more friction. Also read _Freedom of the Hills_ if you are worried about placing pro or technique. I pretty much am reading that book continuously.

Just something to think about,
the taoist


lofstromc


Nov 11, 2005, 6:46 AM
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Take all the advice posted and drop your heals; that is critical.
BTW. flat slab is redundant.

Good luck


Partner handtraverse


Nov 11, 2005, 6:53 AM
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zoratao,

I appreciate the physics behind your explanation. I can relate the friction vs weight displacement you were talking about to what I heard about a woman's high heel shoe; where a 100 lb woman, for example, put all her weight on the tip of the high heel, it would develope a force af about 1 ton at the tip of the heel...or something to that effect.

Thanks everyone for your help.

Handtraverse

http://www.fauxandwood.com/lynnandtom1.JPG
_______________________
"Mountains are not fair or unfair - they are just dangerous." - Reinhold Messner


mtnbkrxtrordnair


Nov 11, 2005, 7:46 AM
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Just want to add that in order to do the climb, you have to be able to see it first. What I mean is when I started climbing and had to deal with a blank looking section, I had to stare at it for a while just to be able to see the small rugosities ( oh how I love that word :lol: ) that I could use for holds. Then when I saw them, I would use a little chalk to mark them so I could even remember where they were. Then I would try to work out a sequence using the holds.

Also, the solution might involve using a small sidepull to do a high step stand up move to reach a higher hold, since the slab section looks short. That's typical for slab.


daithi


Nov 11, 2005, 7:47 AM
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In reply to:
Contrary to common conception reducing the area your shoe contacts the rock actually increases the friction. (One reason rock shoes are small and tight.)

:? The friction force is independent of area (well almost always, there are some exceptions that we need not concern ourselves with here!). Reducing the area does not increase the friction force.

In reply to:
You can think of it as a pressure problem if you like

You could but you would be wrong! The friction depends on the FORCE not pressure. Therefore if you reduce the friction generating area, the pressure increases resulting in the same net force (the component of weight normal to the surface). It's true the material has to do more work but the friction force is not affected (unless you account for secondary effects like heating, which for climbing shoes on rock will be small or non-linearities in the coefficient relationship with the normal force or deformation of the contact patch - issues for designers of race car tires not climbing shoes!)

In reply to:
The way to increase your pressure is to put the majority of your body weight over your feet and only use your hands for balance, thus using 100% of your body weight for the normal force.

This advice sounds good! Try to put as much of your weight over your feet!


daithi


Nov 11, 2005, 8:00 AM
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In reply to:
I heard about a woman's high heel shoe; where a 100 lb woman, for example, put all her weight on the tip of the high heel, it would develope a force af about 1 ton at the tip of the heel...

Try watch her walk down a wet or icy slope and she what happens! All that pressure in the tip of the heel does her no good! :D


Partner heiko


Nov 11, 2005, 8:00 AM
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In reply to:

You could but you would be wrong! The friction depends on the FORCE not pressure. Therefore if you reduce the friction generating area, the pressure increases resulting in the same net force (the component of weight normal to the surface). It's true the material has to do more work but the friction force is not affected

I remember the friction force vs. surface area debate from secondary school physics... my thought is: if materials like soft sticky rubber are part of the game, isn't it true that the climber's weight distributed on a smaller area of rubber would cause the surface structures of the rock to dig deeper into the sole, causing it to stick better?

(Of course I'm not talking about a 2 square millimeter surface here, all right... I mean e.g. toe-sized as opposed to sole-sized).


daithi


Nov 11, 2005, 8:21 AM
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In reply to:
I remember the friction force vs. surface area debate from secondary school physics... my thought is: if materials like soft sticky rubber are part of the game, isn't it true that the climber's weight distributed on a smaller area of rubber would cause the surface structures of the rock to dig deeper into the sole, causing it to stick better?

If the rock is sufficiently textured (eg. sharp teeth) and the rubber sufficiently soft you are correct but this 'interlocking' on a macro scale is getting away from surface friction as normally understood. There now is some additional force coming from the shear stress as the rubber breaks away and is left behind on the rock! This additional shear force is a function of area!

Something similar happens to racing tires at their limit of traction on rough asphalt due to the huge energies involved bonding the rubber to the asphalt and then shearing leaving huge tire marks. This shear force is in addition to the friction force. Whether this is an accurate representation of what happens when we climb on smooth slabs I have my doubts.


azrockclimber


Nov 11, 2005, 8:27 AM
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In reply to:
Hand,

A few of the points giving in these posts were right on the money, and I'll expand on them. I have climbed up to and including some 5.13 slabs, so I think that some of my techniques can help you.

The easiest way to think about how to center yourself is to draw an imaginary line from dead north through the center of your hips downward to your feet. That is your starting point. The second, but more important rule, is weight distribution. It is very important that you stay light on your feet and keep your center over the weight bearing foot. Be very precise with your movements, because jerky and imprecise placement and movement can easily dislodge you from tenuous edges and smears.

When you place a foot on a micro hold or smear, you must gently and precisely shift your center so that it is over the weight bearing foot. If your center (core of hips) is not directly over the weight bearing foot, you will feel off balance. The out of balance forces can cause involuntary contractions in your muscles, also known as sewing machine leg, which can make it impossible to maintain your balance on very small holds and smears.

Sewing machine leg is a clear sign that you are out of balance, and it is easily remedied by shifting your center back over your weight bearing foot. Remember to also keep breathing and stay calm.

Next time you're out near a slab, try to apply these techniques just a few feet above the ground. With a little practice, you should start to feel what good balance is, and then you will find that your slabs will seem much less daunting. Let me know how it works out for you.

very good advice and well put. do this.


azrockclimber


Nov 11, 2005, 8:31 AM
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oh and "hand"...get good at slab...

it is so much fun..It is truly the only type of climbing that really makes me feel like spider man.. It is so sweet. I love it when i think, very briefly, to myself..."holy shit"..."I am standing on absolutely nothing on this steep ass face...."

anyway...good luck and hit up cochise stronghold for some very sweet climbs...stampede .11a, war paint .10c...both are beyond stellar...


Partner handtraverse


Nov 11, 2005, 8:32 AM
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I wish I could stay on the computer for a while as this topic grows but...gotta go. :cry:

http://www.fauxandwood.com/lynnandtom1.JPG
Handtraverse

___________________________
"I'll be back!" Arnold Schwartzenager


rufusandcompany


Nov 11, 2005, 8:35 AM
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I understand the basic rules of physics, although some of you are forgetting that there are variables, i.e. surface texture, humidty, etc. Moreover, if Hand tries to turn this into an exercise in physics, he'll be spending most of his time hanging in his harness.

The information that I gave him was from real-life friction climbing experience - not physics theory. I can tell all of you with assurance that if you overweight your foot placement on certain edges and smears, you are likely to fall. As I said in my earlier post, staying light on your feet is very important. It doesn't mean that you always apply less force. It means that you keep your body light so that you can apply as much or little force as needed with "control."

Keeping your heels down is the general rule, and it will serve you well, although the exact angle appropriate for a particular stance varies. My suggestion is that you stand on different sections of a slab, starting with your heels lower, and then raise and lower them until you get a feel for what works where.

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