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pir8penguin
Aug 5, 2002, 3:46 AM
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jt, how can i not know my own opinion?
btw, climbed all day today in the gym using a double bowline with a yosemite backup. i had to do it a couple times before i left the house to get it down good, but once i did i found it a pleasure to use.
my one problem with it is still that it unties so easily.
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beyond_gravity
Aug 5, 2002, 4:09 AM
Post #27 of 45
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Figure 9
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kahuna3602
Aug 5, 2002, 4:27 AM
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I use both to keep in practice. Having said that, the double bowline scares newbies at the gym (THAT'S NOT HOW YOU TIE A KNOT!!!) and at the crags I feel foolish asking someone else to untie my figure 8 retrace because my fingers won't work properly (having held two crimpers for 5 minutes trying to figure where the heck to go to next, oh and of course falling).
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jt512
Aug 5, 2002, 4:52 PM
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pir8penguin, I'm not going to beat around the bush: You don't have enough experience to even have experessed your opinion. Rockclimbing is dangerous, and uninformed opinions given from one newbie to another have no place in this sport. In this specific case your "opinion," though wrong, was at least conservative, so no-harm-no-foul, but at your stage in this game, you ought to be asking the questions, not answering them.
-Jay
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jammer
Aug 5, 2002, 5:33 PM
Post #30 of 45
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Registered: Jun 25, 2002
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I prefer the figure 8 on a bite,backed up of course, and clipped into my harness with a locking beiner. It's what I've always used.
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coolpops
Aug 5, 2002, 5:44 PM
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handjammer: I was always told (and it makes sense to me) that if a piece of equipment (biner in your case) was not necessary, don't use it. Just add's one more piece to the puzzle capable of failing.
I tie directly into the harness...now on belay of course a biner has to be used.
Jeremy
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bolder
Aug 5, 2002, 6:29 PM
Post #32 of 45
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Do whatever you want. Both work fine.
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fitz
Aug 5, 2002, 6:33 PM
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Handjammer,
For most climbing, I would discourage people from clipping in with a biner. During a fall, there is no gurantee that the biner will be loaded on its spine. In lead climbing, the fall forces can potentially exceed the cross load strength of most lockers.
On a few occassions, I have clipped into the middle of a rope. However, with a climber on each end, I would normally use an alpine butterfly knot instead of a figure 8 on a bite. When the strands are loaded perpendicular to the knot, a figure 8 tends to invert (for lack of a better word) and puts a lot of torque on the line.
-jjf
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climbsomething
Aug 5, 2002, 7:28 PM
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I endorse the figure-8 out of familiarity. I go with what I know, and to boot, I know the 8 to be safe. I have never used a bowline. This is not to say I would never use a bowline in the future, I would just want a competent, experienced instructor for it.
To recap: For me, the figure-8 is a trusted knot. But I admit this is by default, and thus not the definitive word on harness tie-in methods. Please check any advice you get on the 'net with your nearest climbing guru
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jammer
Aug 5, 2002, 8:48 PM
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I never thought of it that way. Remove veriables and probabilities start to lower! Thanks for the tip coolpops and fitz.
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slcliffdiver
Aug 5, 2002, 9:22 PM
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Accoring to a German rec.climber the German Climbing association endorsess the rewoven bowline and the figure 8. Thought it was interesting these specific knots were asked about.
I use the double bowline with Yosemite finish? (tail put back through the single loop) and a double grape vine stopper knot for everything except trad or gyms that will bug me about it. Don’t use a single bowline with a Yosemite Finish.
Because of my screw ups that others caught the first year I was climbing (getting interrupted by someone and not finishing my knot). I don’t recommend anything but the 8 to new climbers (at least to US climbers) so others can spot things easier. Now tying my knot and checking it is part of my meditation I am very focused when I do this. Like others have said not everyone recognizes knots besides the figure 8 so screwing them up can be more risky. But not being able to untie relatively quickly and or relatively easy can be risky in some rare situations also.
I’ve decided not too long ago to use the rewoven bowline for trad instead of the 8.
I stick with the double bowline with Yosemite finish and a double grape vine stopper knot instead of the retrace for non trad knots so I have a safe knot that’s a lot easier to tie consistently than others with my eyes closed (for tying in case I’m cold and in the dark "again") and also in part because it’s part of my meditation (I open my eyes to check it). I'm not sure I'd recommend tying knots with eyes closed in general. I didn't start doing this until I realized I wasn't looking at my tie in knots while I tied them anyway and doing them correctly every time. I feel safer doing it this way with the meditation though. It allows me to fully concentrate on tying the knot and not let myself be distracted. It also puts me in the proper mindset for checking my knot (I don’t see what I expect to see, I see what is their easier with meditation). For me making the block from tying in to checking my knot one uninterrupted section of meditation gives me the sense that I won’t allow any interruption of the process.
Okay on my horse now a bit but I do think it would be safer in general if it became a stronger practice not to interrupt someone while they’re tying in, or let yourself be interrupted. I think it’s a fairly common cause of injuries, Lynn Hill almost bought it this way at a comp so experience isn’t necessarily a cure all.
Noah cool! thanks, I thought I finally knew all of the climbing bowline variants. For a rewoven bowline with a Yosemite finish I want to make sure I understand you correctly, it’s already coming back out that end that would be a normal Yosemite finish for a bowline. Now you stuff the tail back through the double loops right? I just tried that and it looks really awesome that way. Thanks for the new knot! It’s such simple and elegant finish I can’t believe I hadn’t seen it or thought of it before. My new trad knot!
Peace
David
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pir8penguin
Aug 6, 2002, 2:22 AM
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the idea of an opinion being considered "wrong" is the most illogical idea i have ever encountered. my opinion my run in sharp contrast to that of climbers with more experience, but it's still an opinion.
that's really all i have to say openly concerning this discussion.
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coolpops
Aug 6, 2002, 2:29 AM
Post #38 of 45
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handjammer: do not tie into the belay loop (if your harness has one) but into the two loops where the belay loop is fed through, the leg loops and waiste loop... same principal, eliminate unnecessary items in your safety line ... in this case the belay loop.
Jeremy
[ This Message was edited by: coolpops on 2002-08-05 19:39 ]
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wyoclimber
Aug 6, 2002, 3:07 AM
Post #39 of 45
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I used the figure 8 follow through exclusively for 16 years, in fact, i thought it was the only knot to use. But over the last summer, i have been trying some of the other tie in knots, including the double bowline, the bowline follow through, and the bowline with a bowline backup (under careful supervision, of course). these all seem to have their benifits, especially during the untieing process, but when it comes to the comfort of tying at night, etc. i stick to the 8.
just my 2 cents...
stay safe!
b
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joemor
Aug 6, 2002, 7:34 AM
Post #40 of 45
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for all those who havent tried the double bowline...... give it a go, i use t just use the 8 and after a fall or two with the bowline im converted..... ill never go back.
joe
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bouldertoad
Aug 7, 2002, 2:40 AM
Post #41 of 45
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I would have t osay that after you are somewhat experienced with the bowline it is as good if not better than the figure eight. It is much easier to untie after weighting and if you do not tie it correctly it will not even hold together. I use both though.......
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pir8penguin
Aug 7, 2002, 3:09 AM
Post #42 of 45
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well, i must say that after another long night at the gym using the double-loop bowline, i'm getting closer to full-out conversion. i climbed with my heavier partner, and never once had to struggle with a knot that he'd fallen on and couldn't untie himself. after he untied it once, and really got the hang of "threadin the d*mn thing!" he's convinced it's a great knot, and will continue to use unless teaching newbs.
i guess i should grab a bog *ss spoon and start eating my own words
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gpfeifer
Aug 8, 2002, 10:18 PM
Post #43 of 45
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Registered: Jul 18, 2002
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This is one of the reasons I stopped using a rope, all this crap on which knot to tie in with...give it a rest!!! ok maybe thats a bit harsh(sorry)..I guess my best advice on which knot to use, if you really must use a knot, is to seek out those that do rather than those who think they do!! Nothing in the climbing world can replace EXPERIENCE!! get with the climbers that are climbing..talk with them,watch them, do whatever it takes to get a complete understanding on the knot or knots that you will be using...cuz it really doesn't matter if you use a eight or a bowline when the rope breaks the knot ain't gonna stop you from decking... Ropeless solo aid is for me...
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gpfeifer
Aug 8, 2002, 10:20 PM
Post #44 of 45
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Registered: Jul 18, 2002
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This is one of the reasons I stopped using a rope, all this crap on which knot to tie in with...give it a rest!!! ok maybe thats a bit harsh(sorry)..I guess my best advice on which knot to use, if you really must use a knot, is to seek out those that do rather than those who think they do!! Nothing in the climbing world can replace EXPERIENCE!! get with the climbers that are climbing..talk with them,watch them, do whatever it takes to get a complete understanding on the knot or knots that you will be using...cuz it really doesn't matter if you use a eight or a bowline when the rope breaks the knot ain't gonna stop you from decking... Ropeless solo aid is for me...
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pbjosh
Aug 8, 2002, 10:42 PM
Post #45 of 45
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Registered: Mar 22, 2002
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The most important thing, in my opinion, is to stick with one knot and know that you can tie it with frozen fingers in the dark in the snow while pooped stupid with a frozen rope. Okey maybe not in such extreme circumstances but there are many acceptable tie in knots. Pick one, inform yourself widely about it (Freedom of the Hills and the How To Climb! series are particularly authoritative and very factually accurate) and stick with it.
Very few people die because they choose the wrong knot (Rapping off a figure eight with both tails facing the same direction is the cause of death in a recent fatality in Zion - a rare instance of using the WRONG knot). People die much more frequently because they mistie their knots. Don't believe me, read a full year or three of ANAM (Accidents in North American Mountaineering). Pick one and stick with it.
But more importantly, as jt512 and others have said, climbing safety is no place to speak up just to be heard. One misinformed/uninformed newbie giving advice to another is potentially lethal (not necessarily in this situation), and I don't think anyone would like to have to think about someone else having died based on information they gave out just so they could get a word in edgewise. If you don't absolutely know what you're talking about then shut up and read until you do know exactly what you're talking about.
Most importantly, with your life potentially on the line, everyone should prove things to themselves and be sufficiently informed rather than relying on what's read on a bulletin board. Read Freedom of the Hills, it's the bible of climbing. Read Medicine for Mountaineering, read the How to Climb! books on anchors, educate yourself and practice in safe confines so you know what's safe and what isn't.
josh
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