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thomaskeefer
Nov 8, 2005, 4:02 AM
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Just curious how many people actually put in upward pull pieces on their average outing. I have climbed with many different partners and never seen anyone ever put an upward pull piece in on a trad route. Has this been a fluke? Do you ever put them in? Sometimes? Always?
PLEASE ADVISE>>
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schnoz
Nov 8, 2005, 4:16 AM
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For single pitch: what's the point?
Off of bolt anchors: nope, they're omni-directional
Now, if we're talking multi-pitch gear only anchors, then yes. Assuming of course that the expected pull from the leader is going to be up. If it's a traverse, it probably won't be.
edit: I assumed you were talking about anchors only. If we're talking about pro, then I try to slot stuff to hold for all expected angles of pull. Bet it down or sideways or whatever.
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deltav
Nov 8, 2005, 4:16 AM
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usually just on the first peice, and sometimes on belay anchors
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areuinclimber
Nov 8, 2005, 4:32 AM
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only on gear anchors. otherwise no.
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climbingaggie03
Nov 8, 2005, 4:39 AM
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I usually don't put an upward pull piece in, except for multi pitch anchors, i do try and put a cam, or a well wedged nut in as my first piece, to prevent the zipper effect.
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thegreytradster
Nov 8, 2005, 4:41 AM
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Always the first piece if possible.
Having survived a "zippering" incident, "the first piece must be omnidirectional" is an inviolate rule. This was a far more common possibility BSG (before spring gear). But, still a scenario one must guard against.
At belays, "it depends".
If I'm leading with my 200lb plus bulk, and my belayer is in the 100lb category, you'd better believe there's an upward pull piece. Even if they are on the ground.
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blueeyedclimber
Nov 8, 2005, 2:17 PM
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It DEPENDS!
Generally, I do not. If the leader severely outweighs the belayer, then yes. If the belayer is under a roof and in danger of being pulled into it, yes. I don't like to be anchored down when belaying. I feel positioning and stance is much more effective and if anchored down it prevents or limits your ability to give a dynamic belay.
Josh
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thomaskeefer
Nov 8, 2005, 2:35 PM
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Sorry for the lack of clarity in my original post.. I was referring to an upward pull piece at the anchor.. not so much at the first placement. I think that I have done it a few times but most of the time not. It never seems all that necessary. Maybe I will try to keep it in mind more in the future for all gear anchors (probably not though).
Now the multi-directional piece(s) for the first placement off the anchor, that is a whole diff story. Seeing Largo's call for input made me think back to the first copy of How to Climb (the one that was only slightly larger than basic rock craft by RR) where no mention was made of this first piece out being directional- It is amazing how much we have grown safety wise (and how the community has pushed the limits during that same time)
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iltripp
Nov 8, 2005, 2:44 PM
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In reply to: Sorry for the lack of clarity in my original post.. I was referring to an upward pull piece at the anchor.. not so much at the first placement. I think that I have done it a few times but most of the time not. It never seems all that necessary. Maybe I will try to keep it in mind more in the future for all gear anchors (probably not though).
Unless you are doing single pitch climbs, I'd highly suggest you start making your anchors capable of sustaining an upward pull. I'd also suggest that you tell your partners to do the same.
Isn't this like Anchors 101?
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paganmonkeyboy
Nov 8, 2005, 3:09 PM
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my first regular trad partner weighed 70 lbs less than me, so i was weened on always setting a directional...even a single pitch can zipper on you, so yeah, it is a good habit to get into...
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haas
Nov 8, 2005, 3:35 PM
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I always do for multi-pitch gear anchors. For single pitch routes, I generally don't unless I know my piece is going to be a nut and then I generally just slot an upward pull piece and equalize the two with a sling and continue on my marry way
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tradklime
Nov 8, 2005, 3:39 PM
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In reply to: I was referring to an upward pull piece at the anchor.. not so much at the first placement.
Almost never. The need for such is very rare. It's one of those things that is good in practice and likely won't hurt you, but is more of a beginner practice. There are a few situations where one is necessary. Until people know and understand what those situations are, they should place an upward pull piece. Most experienced climbers don't as a matter of normal anchor construction.
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salparadise
Nov 8, 2005, 4:08 PM
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I'm surprised by people saying that they dont use rig their multi-pitch anchors for an upward pull, seeing as that is the only type of pull (on most routes) that the anchor will sustain if the leader takes a fall (after putting in their first piece). An anchor without at least one piece designed to hold an upward pull is only a toprope anchor and isn't one that I personally would lead off of. The point has been made that you have the belayers weight countering an upward force, but lead falls sure can generate alot of force (considering the weight; however, I usually only put in one piece for an upward pull vs the 2-3 that I put for downward pulls). My advice is not to mess around with your anchor, it's the one thing keeping you and your partner from taking very long dirt naps, so make them as text-book as you can every time.
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afiveonbelay
Nov 8, 2005, 4:21 PM
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upward pull on a gear built cordalette anchor? absoulutely oprah! that's if there is space available in the rock face.
the cordalette system has pieces above the belay point. it relys on your body weight to keep the belay point still. catch a big fall and you are going to be tugged around.
trad gear anchors cannot always be perfect or bomber. that's the real world.
you try to do the best with what you got.
without an upward pull directional piece, the cordalette is not multi-directional.
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chossmonkey
Nov 8, 2005, 4:54 PM
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I always try to have my first piece at least good for outward pull. Cams will generally rotate and stay in place making an outward/ upward piece. A single nut can be good for outward if the crack constricts to the front. If my first piece is a nut and it isn't good for outward pull I'll try to get one in opposition. If that isn't easy to do, I put in a cam.
Belay anchors that someone will climb above, it's a no brainer. Always have at least one upward piece.
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dingus
Nov 8, 2005, 5:24 PM
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I generally look for a multidirectional cam placement to address this contingency. In fact, I *prefer* that all my belay anchors be multidirectional, but alas, I can't always get what I want.
I just hope I get what I need, know what I mean?
DMT
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sspssp
Nov 8, 2005, 7:44 PM
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In reply to: I'm surprised by people saying that they dont use rig their multi-pitch anchors for an upward pull, seeing as that is the only type of pull (on most routes) that the anchor will sustain if the leader takes a fall (after putting in their first piece).... My advice is not to mess around with your anchor, it's the one thing keeping you and your partner from taking very long dirt naps, so make them as text-book as you can every time.
It certainly doesn't hurt, but what really happens if you don't have an upward pull piece and your leader falls? Well, if the leader can generate enough upward pull on his belayer to [in a worse case scenerio] rip the anchor entirely out, then I would say he took a fall on a very good piece. So now his belayer and the leader are both hanging from that piece. Is this ideal? Nope. Does it cause anyone to take a dirt nap? Nope.
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rufusandcompany
Nov 8, 2005, 8:26 PM
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In reply to: For single pitch: what's the point?
Working on a short climbing career, I see. Here's a tip: Please don't ever consider teaching.
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schnoz
Nov 8, 2005, 11:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: For single pitch: what's the point? Working on a short climbing career, I see. Here's a tip: Please don't ever consider teaching.
Then enlighten me, what is the point of even building an anchor at the bottom of a single pitch trad route? That alone putting in a peice for an upward pull. The OP wasn't specific about if he was talking about anchors or the first piece when I replied.
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sparky
Nov 8, 2005, 11:35 PM
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on gear belays i usually do, espically if it is mostly nuts
if my fisrst piece of gear is passive, i'll make it multidirectional
zipper effect is scary business
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rufusandcompany
Nov 8, 2005, 11:45 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: For single pitch: what's the point? Working on a short climbing career, I see. Here's a tip: Please don't ever consider teaching. Then enlighten me, what is the point of even building an anchor at the bottom of a single pitch trad route? That alone putting in a peice for an upward pull. The OP wasn't specific about if he was talking about anchors or the first piece when I replied.
Correct. It didn't specify, so the first pitch could be at the top of a fifteen hundred foot high scree slope or on a ledge system, and the reason for placing an upward directional should be obvious.
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schnoz
Nov 9, 2005, 12:20 AM
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Being on a scree slope or a ledge system is a whole other ballgame compared to a day at your local single pitch crag.
Instead of chastising someone because something isn't clear, next time you might want to say "I can see why you wouldnt' do that at a crag, but on a scree slope you might want to consider it".
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rufusandcompany
Nov 9, 2005, 12:26 AM
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In reply to: Being on a scree slope or a ledge system is a whole other ballgame compared to a day at your local single pitch crag. Instead of chastising someone because something isn't clear, next time you might want to say "I can see why you wouldnt' do that at a crag, but on a scree slope you might want to consider it".
Had someone asked in earnest, that is exactly what I would have done. I was placing a mirror in front of his comments.
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kubi
Nov 9, 2005, 12:49 AM
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In reply to: "the first piece must be omnidirectional" is an inviolate rule.
It's important to keep this in mind for every piece, not just the first one. I had a friend who was injured a couple of months ago when an intermediate piece pulled out and gave her just enough slack to hit a ledge.
edit: What I meant to say was that the direction of forces needs to be considered for every peice, not just the first one. Which I'm sure you knew, tgt.
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tradrenn
Nov 9, 2005, 2:10 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Being on a scree slope or a ledge system is a whole other ballgame compared to a day at your local single pitch crag. Instead of chastising someone because something isn't clear, next time you might want to say "I can see why you wouldnt' do that at a crag, but on a scree slope you might want to consider it". Had someone asked in earnest, that is exactly what I would have done. I was placing a mirror in front of his comments.
Hey rufusandcompany let it go. Up here in Ontario we only have one pitch climbs and the only reason to build that kind of anchor is when belayer is way lighter then the leader. ( I'm talkin about one pitch, about up to 100 feet long routes )
8^)
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