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ridgeclimber
Nov 23, 2005, 9:11 PM
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I was thinking about what rope-soloing on ice would involve (I've done it on rock, but I haven't done any ice yet). I guess the main thing would be making the anchor multidirectional -- I assume this would involve turning some of the ice screw hangers to face up and putting them in at an opposite angle than one would if you were placing them for a downward pull. I guess you could also make two bollards and cut one of them for an upward pull to make an anchor multidirectional. Hmmmm.... :?: Pardon me if I sound stupid, but I'm not much of an ice climber.
The second consideration would be self-belay devices. Grigris are no good on ice, and I suspect SP's weren't designed for cold wealther. A clove hitch would certainly work, but, speaking from experience, it's a royal pain in the ass.
Does anyone have thoughts on this?
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brad84
Nov 23, 2005, 9:53 PM
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i climb rock and ice too; i rope solo as well. ive soloed ice also- sans rope.
due to a variety of differences in mediums, i would say just leave the rope at home and go have a vertical day on the ice. just you and your tools.
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ridgeclimber
Nov 23, 2005, 10:04 PM
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I understand that free-soloing is great in its own way, but I just don't think its my cup of tea. It's great that you enjoy it, but I think I'm going to rope up; can anyone answer my original question?
Thanks
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brianinslc
Nov 23, 2005, 10:04 PM
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In reply to: I was thinking about what rope-soloing on ice would involve... Does anyone have thoughts on this?
Yeah, given the medium, you may be be better off soloing ice sans rope.
Even a small fall on any angle ice, could result in broken bones. The only thing even remotely safe, might be to rig a self belay on a top rope type set up, ie, run a USHBA basic up a fixed single line (and make sure it stays super snug to/on you!).
Bad idea jeans, methinks. If its easy enough to be soloing on, then don't use a rope. If its challenging enough to require a rope, then find a partner.
My advice? Don't fall ice climbing. If you want to push it, or train, do it with a partner, on a tight and very attentive top rope.
Brian in SLC
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ridgeclimber
Nov 23, 2005, 10:08 PM
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In reply to: Even a small fall on any angle ice, could result in broken bones. Brian in SLC
I don't see why this would be true; the fall forces would be similar to those on rock. I guess if I were really concerned about it, I would use screamers on the anchors.
Could you explain what you mean by that statement? Do you mean that the static belay would cause greater forces (which is true, but would not result in broken bones), or do you mean that simply falling and hitting something? Thanks.
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kixx
Nov 23, 2005, 10:24 PM
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I have had some great climbs solo on ice with a chest ascender clipped to a top rope. Simply climb up an easier route (or hike up) and rap down after fixing a top rope - great fun and no partner required... although still easier with a partner unless their all bone heads.
Also, remember a foot prussik to get yourself back on the ice if you slip off the vertical stuff.
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brianinslc
Nov 23, 2005, 10:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Even a small fall on any angle ice, could result in broken bones. I don't see why this would be true; the fall forces would be similar to those on rock. I guess if I were really concerned about it, I would use screamers on the anchors.
Dude, its ice climbing. Every appendage is sporting pointy bits. A short fall of three feet onto your crampons could bust your foot. Etc etc etc.
Has very little to do with fall factors...
Also, ice is a very poor medium for bomber protection. The standard deviation for ice screws in a solid, repeatable block of ice is very high. If folks like BD used three sigma to rate ice screws, based on batch testing in ice, they'd be rated at only around 800 or so pounds.
You'd be living, at best, on false hopes. Better to not have a rope, and, have the "I must not fall at all costs" mindset. Seriously.
That said, I do know folks who lead climb solo with a rope. But, they are super talented, very experienced, never fall, and treat their situation as if they ARE soloing.
I'm sure it could be done. You could build an anchor at the bottom for pure upward pull (I'm not sure why you'd mention multi directional, if you're lead soloing with a rope, the force on your pro is either straight up at the belay anchor, or straight down for the lead pro). Lead out and place screws or rock gear (mixed) and clip them using whatever type of rope solo self belay device. But, I think its a foolish idea. I know what ANAM would say.
Very little or no margin for error, and, ice is a sketchy enough medium as it is. Way less risky to just free solo, IMHO, because at least you know what'll happen if you fall (and therefore, you don't). Plus, with sharp tool bits, screw hangers, easy to cut/damage your slings and rope too.
Bad idea. And, no amount of chit chat about fall forces, screw ratings, ropes, screamers, etc, will make it any safer. Folks fall ice climbing WITH partners and get hurt or killed. Without? Hey, no one to hear your screams...
Sorry to be so grim...ice climbing is fun...but...be safe, and keep it fun!
Brian in SLC
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ridgeclimber
Nov 23, 2005, 10:48 PM
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The reason I say it needs to be multidrection is that you can take a factor 2 downward fall on the anchor before you place gear; thus it needs to handle pulls in both directions. That's how it works on rock; I can't see any way it would be different on ice.
What you say makes sense, but it seems to me that you're relying on your anchors just as much with a partener; if all your screws rip, you're dead anyway. If your belay anchor blows, you're dead too. I could be misguided, but I think I would feel comfortable solo leading off a really solid bunch of screws; then again, I haven't really done much ice so I'm not speaking from experience.
Thanks for the advice,
Ridgeclimber
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brianinslc
Nov 23, 2005, 11:07 PM
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In reply to: The reason I say it needs to be multidrection is that you can take a factor 2 downward fall on the anchor before you place gear; thus it needs to handle pulls in both directions. That's how it works on rock; I can't see any way it would be different on ice.
At the risk of being a dink, I'd say you haven't done much multi pitch ice climbing...
Best practice is to either not leave the belay prior to placing your first lead piece, or, place it right off the belay, in the "no fall" zone.
Most experienced ice climbing folks I know, build their anchor for multi pitch with a top screw already clipped in for the follower to swing leads on. Very common and smart practice.
In reply to: What you say makes sense, but it seems to me that you're relying on your anchors just as much with a partener; if all your screws rip, you're dead anyway. If your belay anchor blows, you're dead too. I could be misguided, but I think I would feel comfortable solo leading off a really solid bunch of screws; then again, I haven't really done much ice so I'm not speaking from experience.
Since I don't fall (knock on wood), I'm not relaying on either a partner or my anchors. Ha ha. But, having a partner gives me SO much more margin...
Personally, I'd rather free solo and be solid, than rope solo and be sketchy. Stopping to place pro takes time and effort. Marginal sometimes at best.
Look at the super good ice climbers out there. You ever see them soloing with a rope? Nah. Its just not done. You're either solid or you're not. Therefore, you should either solo, or not. Pretty simple.
Ice climbing is a much more unforgiving game than rock. Read the last couple years of ANAM and look at the ice accidents. Then think about how many folks whip rock climbing and never get hurt, or, only minor injuries. I'd venture to say, a very high percentage of folks who fall ice climbing get hurt or killed. Much higher than rock climbing falls. Much much higher.
I'm a pretty avid ice climber. 23 years plus. Lead ice prior to learning to rock climb. Maybe its an old school mentality, but, for ice climbing, it shouldn't be: do not fall.
Anyhoo, have fun, be safe, happy turkey day, don't fall, yada yada...
Brian in SLC
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brad84
Nov 23, 2005, 11:16 PM
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In reply to: ...but it seems to me that you're relying on your anchors just as much with a partener
a vast majority of the time when i catch a fall as a belayer i do not need to rely on the anchor due to the simple reason that i have a good enough stance to catch the fall myself. in fact, i cant think of a time off the top of my head when i have needed the anchor to arrest a fall (of course i always place a totally bomber anchor nonetheless).
In reply to: ...but I think I would feel comfortable solo leading off a really solid bunch of screws..
ever seen a screw melt out of its placement because of sunlight? i have, it doesn't take long either.
i agree w/ Brian; rope soloing ice will give you a false sense of (mental) security.
braininslc has given you a slew of great reasons to not rope solo ice. he has spoken from experience and it sure sounds like he knows his stuff. we're not flaming you. experientially, this just doesn't sound like a good idea to us. if you must r.solo ice, go. but dont rationalize to yourself that you are any safer than you would be if you were sans rope.
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ridgeclimber
Nov 23, 2005, 11:26 PM
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I understand that you're both experienced climbers giving good advice. I understand your points and they are good ones. However, regardless of how I feel psychologically about falling, if I must fall I'd sure as hell rather have a rope. As I said before, I haven't really done much ice before. I'm not disagreeing with you; I'm just speaking personally.
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ghosthaunter
Nov 24, 2005, 12:29 AM
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ummmm, why not use an abaklov (we call them billy bobs round here)anchor, your going to need them anyhow to rap(unless you walk off) and they are multi-directional plus don't melt out as fast as ice screws.
i agree with the other posts, you don't want to fall ice climbing, i've seen messed up ankles and legs from falls as short as three feet. it has more to do with catching a poon as you fall than any thing else.
gh
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brad84
Nov 24, 2005, 12:34 AM
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woah woah, wait a minute...ridgeclimber: you wouldnt happen to be either charlie or sam would you? i just noticed that we both have each other listed as people that we have climbed w/.
if so, how'd the rest of your summer turn out?
remember that amazing looking thin crack at Sundown that we were looking at? i ended up ticking that one off the next time i got up there.
and if youre looking to solo for lack of a partner, drop me a line.
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ridgeclimber
Nov 24, 2005, 12:41 AM
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I'm sorry, you must have me confused; If I clicked the "climbed with" icon it must have been an accident. Sorry to disappoint you...
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jeldship
Nov 24, 2005, 2:31 AM
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it would be great to hear from some climbers who do solo ice? and then how?
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akclimber
Nov 24, 2005, 4:20 AM
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Silent Partner: Says specifically in the manual, do not use below 40 degrees. I bet the clutch would freeze open.
Gri-gri or ascender: Ever notice when ice climbing everything seems to freeze? (At least here it does) Woudn't want them to freeze open..
Clove: How are you going to make a clove hitch with a frozen rope?
As for all the gear: I wouldn't want to fuck with it while leading. And if it comes down to taking your gloves off?
Brain knows his shit, his info is dead on.
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fear
Nov 24, 2005, 5:18 AM
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Anyone thinking of chopping multi-directional bollards hasn't really done much ice... as you stated.....
That being said just get in some solid time with a solo TR setup if you don't want to free solo anything(which doesn't sound like a good idea for you anyway)...
-Fear
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glyrocks
Nov 24, 2005, 5:33 AM
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The two problems I see specific to rope-soloing ice are 1) impact forces and 2) it would be an enormous pain in the ass.
Using a gri-gri or one the wren devices is out of the question; you'd have to use some knot method, like the clove hitch (as far as I know anyway). I don't think tying clove hitches would be that hard if you used a well-treated dry rope, and kept it out of any water. The problem I can think of is the increased impact force on the screw. Ice pro does actually work (despite the incessant hawking that it doesn't) but it needs correct placement and a dynamic belay through screamers and/or an active belayer, and some luck. You can put screamers on your screws, but tying off with a clove hitch makes it a very static belay. And you really don't want to test your screws, because most of the time you will get fucked.
The second problem is rope-soloing is just a shit ton of work. I enjoy the solitude and being one bad mofo and blah blah blah, but it's way more work than climbing with a partner. More work means more time which means more opportunity to get jacked by melting ice, fatigue, the cold, bad weather, etc. Despite what your top-roping gym partner thinks, unroped climbing is often much safer than being roped because you can dramatically increase your speed. That doesn't apply as much to single pitch ice-crags... but the point is the same.
The points about messing with gear and breaking bones because of your crampons are kind of irrelevent because they pertain to partner climbing as well. I mean, you want to keep in mind that you might get jacked up if you fall while rope-soloing and no one is around to help, but that isn't a problem inherent or limited to rope-soloing/partner as opposed to free-soloing.
Nonetheless, my advice is similar: either stick to free soloing routes you simply will not fall on, fix a line on harder routes, or find a partner. Good for you though for thinking it out and requiring legitimate answers. Most people just ask a question and turn of their brain.
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timl
Nov 24, 2005, 8:57 AM
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Couple of things that come to mind. If you do not have much experience ice climbing, find somebody to take you out and teach you a couple things. People think that ice climbing is easy...whack the axes into the ice and go. Itīs not, to climb ice correctly, there is a lot of technique that you need to learn. Learn the basics before you go out and solo stuff. Do you even know how to set up an ablokov?
Modern gear is much better than the old stuff, but still the nature of the medium demands that you run out placements much farther than you would on rock. As for using an Usba, gri gri or wren to solo...that is a dumb idea. The devices freeze. Secondly, due to the nature of th medium, the ropes get wet and freeze which would cause what ever device you have to be useless anyways. And there is no way to keep water off your rope. Sure you can buy a dry treated rope, but that will stop it from being wet about one whole minute longer than a non dry treated rope.
In terms of anchor placement, and this tells me you donīt know much about the medium, most ice climbing anchors are multi directional. Sure you can arrange them better depending on the area of the belay, bit your putting them in a chunk of ice. Its not like a crack that faces up or down and you have to set a directional anchor.
Last thing. Usually you solo with one rope. Most of the time you climb ice on doubles. This is a huge problem in and of itself for several reasons. Depending on the terrain, exception a thin column, Ice climbing terrain wanders a lot, and depending on the quality of the ice, your pro will cause you tons of rope drag. Also, with the amount of falling ice that is caused by ice climbing, its safer to have two ropes in case one gets cut.
Do yourself a big favor, find a partner and learn the basics or hire a guide for a day.
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jeldship
Nov 24, 2005, 10:06 AM
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not commenting on the thread's posts but just in case he doesn't know for some reason, it's an abalkov--named after a russian climber, vitali abalkov...
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adnix
Nov 24, 2005, 11:37 AM
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In reply to: I was thinking about what rope-soloing on ice would involve
In general hard ice climbing is very close to soloing. Hard ice is 90% of the time difficult to protect and it's much easier not bother about protection. In stead, keep moving steady and you're safe. Waterfall ice and alpine climbing are the last bastions of climbing where you should be very scared of falling. Typical result of falling is either broken bones or something worse. Unless you top rope, of course.
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ridgeclimber
Nov 24, 2005, 1:27 PM
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Yes, I know what an abalakov is. No, I don't have experience on ice. No, I don't intend to go off and solo routes before I get more experience. Just to clear things up.
As for the other posts (bear in mind that I'm not arguing with any of you, I know you all have experience, I'm just musing): I agree that the impact forces are greater when you're soloing, (I have rope-soloed on rock). It seems to me that the only solution would be to set significantly more protection than you otherwise would, and really hope that it's strong. I know this won't always be possible, but maybe in those circumstances it's just better to go home.
You guys are giving me good reasons not to rope-solo ice. But I have heard of people doing it, not waterfall ice, but on alpine routes; I was just reading a thread about devices for rope-soloing alpine climbs. One member said he used clove hitches. What do you guys think about rope-soloing alpine climbs? I think they often include mixed climbing, and I for one definately don't want to be sans rope on rock. What do you think?
Thanks,
Ridgeclimber
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evanmfreeman
Nov 24, 2005, 1:49 PM
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a famous ice climber once said: ice comes in two versions--good quality, on which you don't need protection because each axe swing is like a belay; and bad qality, on which you need pro, but can't get it because the ice sucks.
the simple answer to this discussion is that ice is not the place to push one's limits solo. if you're soloing ice, it should be in plastic condition, and you should be climbing well below your lead grade. i've rope soloed a _lot_ of rock, including at the fisher towers and other areas not known for good rock. i've also free soloed a lot on rock and ice, so i know of what i speak.
the reason: falling on ice is not allowed, period. if you fall while leading, you will almost certainly be fucked up somehow, and getting off the route and out to civilisation/warmth is paramount--doing so alone is much more difficult and dangerous.
just set up a solo top-rope and use a chest ascender or mini-traxion for ice practice. climb until you can't feel your tools any more, and when you finally land a partner, you'll be dialed.
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ridgeclimber
Nov 24, 2005, 1:55 PM
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I'm sure you're right, and that you speak from extensive experience, but what about my last post? People rope solo alpine routes?
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sixpack
Nov 24, 2005, 2:39 PM
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In reply to: not commenting on the thread's posts but just in case he doesn't know for some reason, it's an abalkov--named after a russian climber, vitali abalkov...
Probably just a typo, but it is Vitaly Abalakov..... :)
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