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pazer0
Nov 29, 2005, 5:36 PM
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On an alpine route how easy is it to climb vertical or near vertical ice with one tool and one mountaineering ax? What rec does anyone have for an ax that works for alpine and some vertical on same route and what length. I've been ice climbing for a while but plan to do some real alpine this season.
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grk10vq
Nov 29, 2005, 6:25 PM
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you can do anything if you put your mind to it.
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mtnman
Nov 29, 2005, 6:53 PM
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I have used this method several times. I can climb steep ice if there are plenty of rests. I need to have a place to stand as I move the ice tool and hang by the mountaineering axe. Vertical ice is very strenuous and insecure. Forget about mixed!
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roy_hinkley_jr
Nov 29, 2005, 7:04 PM
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Nearly every ice, and pretty much all alpine, climbs done before about 1980 were climbed with a 70cm ice axe and a 40cm ice hammer. Basically anything under WI3 can still easily be done with that gear.
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hacksaw
Nov 29, 2005, 7:25 PM
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With a 60cm or 55 cm ax like a Chouniard Zero I've done short vertical alpine ice. Its great to get a handhold on the rock besides the ice or in between the ice and the rock. Tools longer then 60cm will be a lot more difficult to use. But, as it was pointed out, a lot of alpine routes where done with 70cm or long axes with short hammers.
Halsted
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csproul
Nov 29, 2005, 7:33 PM
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If I'm doing a route that has glacier travel and needs a mountaineering axe, then I often will take one axe (mine is a short 60 cm)and one tool. It works fine for vertical glacial ice. If the alpine route is mostly going to be water ice in nature, then I'd rather have two tools.
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pazer0
Nov 29, 2005, 10:11 PM
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Thanks for the info. I willconsider getting a 60 or 65 cm ax instead of my 70cm.
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kixx
Nov 30, 2005, 2:32 AM
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I climb mostly mountaineering routes and have found that a mountaineering ax paired with a 50cm tool works well for most all near vertical climbing except for the waterfall ice that csproul wrote about.
I actually shortened my 72cm ax to 60cm and put a better point on the end of the shaft for better plunging. I also modified the pick with a square file to get better placements in ice. Practice self arresting with the new pick if you do modify it, you may get some surprising results since the angle of attack is way different. A pick shaped for ice will not bite as well in compact snow.
I find this is a very versatile set up with a minimum of extra weight. Chopping placements on water ice can become laborious, however the mountaineering ax will hold on consolidated ice much better that the ice tool, and will plunge better as well.
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olympicmtnboy
Nov 30, 2005, 3:29 AM
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I do moderate mountaineering routes with a 70 cm axe and a shorter straight shafted ice tool. It works fine, as long as you can get good stances to mess with tool placements and cleaning. I find I struggle more to get a good stick with a normal axe, and the leash is a lot harder to hang from, but it works for short bits. If you're gonna do water ice, get real tools, then toprope with your 70 cm axe for fun.
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pico23
Nov 30, 2005, 7:09 AM
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In reply to: Nearly every ice, and pretty much all alpine, climbs done before about 1980 were climbed with a 70cm ice axe and a 40cm ice hammer. Basically anything under WI3 can still easily be done with that gear.
If you look at the technical tools of the 70's and even 80's it's easy to postulate that anything can be done with straight shaft 70mm tools.
The other side of it is, not many people who started climbing in the last 5-10 years has very much experience climbing this way. It's kind of like a Windows XP user trying to figure out MS-DOS. We used it before why not now. Lost skills. People used to climb on foot fangs too.
That said, I've climbed to NEI 3 using a 65cm Grivel general mountaineering axe (not T rated at that) and a straight shafted Omega bulldog just fine. Preferably though you'll have a T rated mountaineering axe pick. I think I currently have the 55 or 60cm Charle Moser Guide for technical ice using my mountaineering axe. It sinks better, has a little better clearance, and has a rubber shaft. I've messed around a TR a few times with the CM Guide on vertical ice and it doesn't have the clearance of even a straight shaft technical tool but on TR for short stretches it climbs well enough. I wouldn't want to do anything more than a short stretch though.
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kricir
Nov 30, 2005, 7:42 AM
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Jeff Lowe climbed WI 5 with long, wooden, mountain axes. problem is, Im nowere as good as Jeff Lowe was ... yet.
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pazer0
Nov 30, 2005, 1:16 PM
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How about that new ax from BD - the Venom. Looks interesting. Anyone have any experience yet?
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anykineclimb
Nov 30, 2005, 2:52 PM
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hehe, I was going to recommend the Grivel Nepal Evo. I suppose any other the "modern" piolet would be a good idea. the additional clearance while swinging may come in handy on steeper stuff or heavily featured ice falls.
I'm thinking about getting one myself to replace my old BD zero point.
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sandstone
Nov 30, 2005, 2:58 PM
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That's how I started ice climbing, with a 70cm axe (and a Chouinard Alpine Hammer). It's not as good as two shorter technical tools, but is OK for routes up to 3 or so IMO.
You'll want to file the business end of the pick so it is appropriate for climbing ice.
If the axe has a smooth shaft you can add some grip tape to the bottom of the shaft.
Make yourself a leash that is long enough so you can hold the bottom of the shaft.
Probably the biggest difference between a mountaineering axe and a modern technical tool is the difference in the pick shape. Modern recurve picks are a breeze to remove from a placement, but the pick on your mountaineering axe can be much harder to remove from a placement -- be prepared with your best cuss words if you sink it deep.
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toml
Dec 2, 2005, 6:41 PM
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I've swung the other way: I assume the default is a short tool or two.
What terrain will I encounter where a short tool will NOT work?
I've gotten pretty good at climbing and descending steep snow with short tools (it's not that hard). And if it's not steep, I usually don't need a tool at all except for self-arrest.
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csproul
Dec 2, 2005, 6:49 PM
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In reply to: Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Vertical ice with mountaineering ax -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've swung the other way: |
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stymingersfink
Dec 5, 2005, 1:40 AM
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In reply to: Nearly every ice, and pretty much all alpine, climbs done before about 1980 were climbed with a 70cm ice axe and a 40cm ice hammer. Basically anything under WI3 can still easily be done with that gear.
In reply to: I've swung the other way:
i hope toml is short for tomlin? :D
Someone else mentioned the BD Venom. I would have if they hadn't beat me to it.
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urbansherpa
Dec 6, 2005, 6:31 PM
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I use my CM Pulsar tools for WI, and a BD Raven for mountains where mostly snow will be encountered.
I've climbed several near-vert waterfalls with a 65cm single axe (on top-rope only). This is not anyones preferred method as it takes a lot more time to chop your handholds and progress. Also, it is very tiring, not to mention ice chips flying everywhere, and eyewear fogging. I've actually done the one axe method without crampons (chopping hand and footholds) but it is too laborious for long stretches.
Try the single axe method for 'fun', and then see how much quicker it is with 2 tools.
I can't imagine leading a full pitch of vert with a single axe like they did a couple of generations ago.
Self-arrest with a reverse curve 'tool' is doable, but a pain because you would have another tool in your lower hand thrashing around, looking for eye sockets!. It is more difficult the harder the snow gets. Self-arrest in ice is near impossible with any type of tool/axe.
Self-arrest with a highly curved tool would be more difficult because the convex side of the tool would have your body weight twisting the pick out in hard firn.
I've looked at the BD Venom but wouldn't buy it. I prefer non-grip, straight-shaft for plunging, and the head isn't as comfy as the BD Raven. Plus, it's more pricey, and heavier.
I'd definitely prefer to self arrest with a single axe than a single tool. Better control.
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pazer0
Dec 6, 2005, 7:45 PM
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I plan to use a mountaineering ax for the snow, etc. and carry one of my ice tools for when it gets vert. Any experience with one long and one short tool? Thanks for the advice. I'll try differnent things before the actual climb.
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mccabeman
Dec 6, 2005, 8:52 PM
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Thousands of grade 5+ ice routes have been done with a 70cm axe and an ice hammer. A huge step up in the '80s was carrying two 60 or 55cm axes. Today, I use the same tools for waterfall and alpine ice.
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urbansherpa
Dec 7, 2005, 3:01 PM
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In reply to: I plan to use a mountaineering ax for the snow, etc. and carry one of my ice tools for when it gets vert. Any experience with one long and one short tool? Thanks for the advice. I'll try differnent things before the actual climb.
Yes, that'll work just fine. If you're looking to do Huntington Ravine (you're from CT, yes?) then one axe, and one tool would be a versatile combination. I've used this combo many times with climbing partners.
You do the lower-grade approach with the axe and pack the tool (as does your partner). Use the combo for your climb. If you hit a short, vertical bulge you can lead with the two ice tools. He can either follow with the longer axes, or you can lower your Cobras (if enough rope, and in a nylon stuff sack so they don't get hung up) and he can second.
For the easier NH gullies I use my single Raven, and my 2 Pulsar bents for the 'fun' stuff.
http://www.chauvinguides.com/...Num_CondPhotosMain=1 (good photo site for latest conditions!)
Be safe,
-Karl
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skinner
Dec 7, 2005, 4:30 PM
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In reply to: Nearly every ice, and pretty much all alpine, climbs done before about 1980 were climbed with a 70cm ice axe and a 40cm ice hammer. Basically anything under WI3 can still easily be done with that gear.
I climbed the "Weeping Wall"
http://www.terragalleria.com/.../icec3467.small.jpeg
pre-80's with just such tools. The technique back then when it became vertical or near vertical, was to clip a set of etrier's to your axes
In reply to: I plan to use a mountaineering ax for the snow, etc. and carry one of my ice tools for when it gets vert. Any experience with one long and one short tool? Thanks for the advice. I'll try different things before the actual climb.
It's the only way to go actually. To try to climb steep ice with a single tool is not only ridiculous and dangerous, but time consuming. There are many "Third Tools" available that work great for this purpose. If you are carrying a rock hammer for driving in pitons anyways, you'd be better off to ditch it in favor of a third tool that would accomplish this task as well. I find most standard length ice tools awkward and inadequate for driving in pitons anyways, so the third tool has become standard equipment for me whether I am on verticle waterfall ice or an alpine style climb.
Throw a long sling on it so you don't drop it, which also works well if reach up and plant it to backup your belays.
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