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kubi


Nov 22, 2005, 7:53 PM
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...and make the route unclimbable for anyone else.

A route that has been climbed, and that you simply choose not to climb, is not then in any sense "unclimbable" because of your choice.

Any route that requires an unprotected and difficult bit of climbing with a potential for groundfall would be "unclimbable" by me...and I'd imagine nearly all other climbers. I have no idea what level you climb at, but chances are there are people that free-solo at your current level. Would you be pleased if they ran some laps at your local crag, putting up FA's...effectevely cutting you off from ever climbing there?

Now, don't get bent out of shape on this, I doubt this situation occurs very often and under most circumstances I'd be in favor of respecting the FAist's style. All I'm saying is that the attitude that the FAist is always right is just plain wrong.


fracture


Nov 22, 2005, 9:59 PM
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Nice one! Was it about those OK. routes Raleigh did back in the day? I suspect the 'limited resource' part of your thoughts comes to the fore if that is the case. I suspect if I lived and climbed there, I might take issue with the bulk of the climbing resources being locked up in death routes too.

It was regarding a route (actually two, I think, but only one was DR's) at Enchanted Rock. It's the only granite crag in central texas, there's only one "real", tall slab wall there, and only a small section of it contains sustained 5.10 or harder routes, so the resource is very limited (and apparently unlike Joe, I actually like climbing low-angle rock on occasion---good way to like, rest the fingers and shit, eh?).

Another funny thing (IIRC, also not mentioned in the editorial) about this story is that the people who did the retro (actually, an elected committee here) were all under the impression that they had FA approval. But it turned out to be miscommunication.


fracture


Nov 22, 2005, 10:04 PM
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But by the way, many (probably most) of the routes have some retro bolts. So it's not like it's locked up in death routes (anymore). (Nearly all of them run out around 35ft on very easy (5.6-5.8) sections at the top, however).

Not to hijack this thread or anything... (heh)


lensign


Nov 23, 2005, 2:29 AM
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Yup, dingus, you're right - no one owes me a safe ascent. I won't argue that. I just agree with kalcario and fracture when they say that a route if it is going to be bolted at all, should be bolted well enough to prevent a lethal ground/ledgefall. Runouts higher up on the route where you might get a little scraped up and soil your panties if you fell - that's ok with me.

Dingus, I'm a bit confused where you stand. On Sept 20th you wrote that HRB "never should have been retrod", then in your last post you said if you were going to climb it now you'd "sure as heck bring a bolt kit". So is retrobolting without permission wrong, or is it ok but only when you're seriously scared? If you added a bolt to ease your mind, would you go back and remove it?

I agree with the writer who said it's time we heard from Vern and Tom, specifically, is it ok to take the X-rating out of HRB? I'd be willing to contact them myself if I had any idea how.

BTW: How come no one uses their real names on this site?

Lars


erclimb


Nov 23, 2005, 4:02 AM
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i'm against overbolting, but i also oppose chopping...if somebody feels that extra bolts are needed for safety reasons AND that person bolts on lead, then what's the problem? the integrity of the FA is not compromised...if you don't like the new bolts, don't clip them--that will give you bragging rights ("i sent the original") while others can enjoy the route retro-style...the FA belongs to those bold climbers, but the route belongs to nobody/everybody


dingus


Nov 23, 2005, 7:40 AM
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Dingus, I'm a bit confused where you stand. On Sept 20th you wrote that HRB "never should have been retrod", then in your last post you said if you were going to climb it now you'd "sure as heck bring a bolt kit". So is retrobolting without permission wrong, or is it ok but only when you're seriously scared?

Hi Lars

Let me see if I can explain my thought process on this. I'll start with personal responsibility. As stated, no one owes me a safe ascent, period. They don't owe me any routes, any climbing time, a gym membership, nothing.

So when I start up a rock, any rock, I do so with the intention of assuming 100% responsibility my own ass. Now I compromise that ideal, often. I'll clip bolts I didn't place and then run it out above them for example. But when I choose to do that, I am still exercising my personal responsibility to protect my own ass.

As a leader, on any given piece of rock, it is up to me to safeguard my own passage or suffer the consequences. I can't cede the consequences so I won't cede the responsibility.

That's the basic framework of my thinking.

Now to retrobolting. I'm afraid I have no pat answer, no concrete position from which to assail those who disagree. I happen to believe in situational ethics in our sport. What would represent bad style retrobolting in one place would or could be a community spirited positive in another. I'm down with that.

For the eastern Californian crag in question, the location, the histories of climbing on the East Side, the FA party and their respective histories, retrobolting Hair Raiser Buttress was *nearly* as controversial as retrobolting Bachar Yerian would be... guaranteed to start a fight. I have to believe that the retrobolters either didn't know (stupid), didn't care (unaware) or did it in spite or to spite (likely a component of their decision).

It showed a complete lack of respect to retrobolt Hair Raiser. It set the stage for futher retrobolt intrusions, all in the name of good climbing of course. We NEED another 5.9 face climb, right? Desperately I guess.

Now back to the responsibility thing. As I said earlier, there isn't a committee and we can't (yet, thank god) appeal to the government. Our styles and ethics are displayed one climber at a time, one route at a time, one ascent at a time. Each is a singular event, and only becomes part of the community as a data point so to speak. Graph all the data points and you have a picture of the community... NOT the other way around.

In other words, you don't point to some mythical Climber's Town and expect beause people live in that place they will all act the same, think the same. There's no mayor or city counsel, its more a refugee camp than it is a town. Each climber/refugee has a different story to tell.

Higgins et al exercised their privilege to climb Hair Raiser Buttress in a style that suited their desires. One data point. Many people climbed the route in that form, it had freaking stars in thd oldest guide. I turned away from it personally.

Then you have the retrobolter(s), exercising their privilege to retrobolt. Remember, there's no mayor, or committee or rules, even, preventing them from doing this. Just our conventions as climbers. But just as clearly, they knew going in that others in their community would not approve.

So these others? They can't appeal to the mayor, the committee, the rulebook, or even their peers; no one has authority. Yet just as clearly, the conventional styles of the area were violated and tradition minded climbers had good reason to be alarmed over this encroachment.

So someone chopped it. That person exercised her privilege just as did the retrobolters.

Now old Dingus is standing at the base of this X route. If I were to launch out across that 40 foot run, I would do so with a bolt kit in hand at this stage in my life. When I was younger I might have been a bit more cavilier about my life to be honest. I might still, quien sabe?

But I might not. Its my life, this is the point I've been trying to make. Dying for some stupid principle of rock climbing, mostly the principles of others (!), is about the STUPIDEST THING ON EARTH.

I'll put a bolt in your great great grandma's headstone if I have to (no offence), if it means I live instead of die. Its MY responsibility. Its MY life. That consideration supercedes ALL DISCUSSION OVER STYLE, all respect for tradition, all ethics are wasted breath in the face of imminent death.

It is up to the leader to safeguard her passage. It isn't up to anyone else. She has the privilege to drill at any point.

Am I saying that I or anyone else should go retrobolt Hair Raiser again? No. What I am saying is no one owes any of you a safe ascent of the route. Period.

For the record, I have no intention of retrobolting this route. All I said was, I would take a bolt kit up that pitch, if I were to lead it. Its MY ass, no one else's. Fear not, I take a bolt kit up a lot of routes, both uncharted and well documented. I don't go up on a trade route wall without one for example.

I think we have lost, no wrong word. I don't think that sense of self-sufficiency in thinking and in deed, are well-developed in today's climbing masses. I think many climbers today would rail, impotently, at the evil-doers who chop, with nary a notion that is it up to THEM, and them alone, individually, to find their way in this sport.

I don't cede my right to drill to save my own ass to anyone, anywhere, anytime and I certainly won't die over a stupid principle. That's sorta a bottom line for me.

DMT


dingus


Nov 23, 2005, 7:53 AM
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I agree with the writer who said it's time we heard from Vern and Tom, specifically, is it ok to take the X-rating out of HRB? I'd be willing to contact them myself if I had any idea how.

BTW: How come no one uses their real names on this site?

Lars

2nd question first... I am using my real name. My real climbing name. For the most part, I think people who use their full given names on an internet forum are asking for trouble. Even my kids call me Dingus.

Now, in terms of Higgins thought process, and perhaps a way for you to ask your questions:

http://www.supertopo.com/..._id=113990#msg113990

Now that thread isn't about Hair Raiser, so you will see yet another shade of my opinion on bolts. But pay particular attention to the comments from Braun, Largo and expecially that dude who calls himself "Long Ago."

There have been some incredibly thoughtful climbing related threads there recently. Any one interested in West Coast climbing history would do well to hang there for a while and read some of the traffic (plenty of bullshit too, just like here, no bad thing really)

Cheers!
DMT


dingus


Nov 23, 2005, 8:02 AM
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Yup, dingus, you're right - no one owes me a safe ascent. I won't argue that. I just agree with kalcario and fracture when they say that a route if it is going to be bolted at all, should be bolted well enough to prevent a lethal ground/ledgefall. Runouts higher up on the route where you might get a little scraped up and soil your panties if you fell - that's ok with me.

Do you think our sport is richer or poorer for harboring the few true x-rated routes that are in existence? Do you think a bolted X rated route is always an abomination? Is there room for diversity in your climbing world? Does it all have to be pasteurized? All of it???

Isn't there room for the Mark Wilford's of the world too? I mean, if there's room for Dave Shultz (no pussy himself) and ryobi gas powered rotary hammers, isn't there also room for respect for Tom Higgins? Can't we have BOTH???

DMT


leinosaur


Nov 23, 2005, 9:28 PM
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A route like the type he is describing was recently retro-bolted at one of my local crags. There was an editors' note in the last Rock & Ice (written by Jeff Jackson) complaining about it---it was a Duane Raleigh FA. (Of course, the note did not describe the retarded way the route had been bolted)

If the "retarded way" was old-style Raleigh, it probably involved protecting the crux if there was a stance, and running out anything easier. If you want to climb a Raleigh 5.9, you should be damn comfortable soloing 5.8.

I was on 5 pitches worth of Raleigh routes today. I led exactly one in his original style:

S-Wall, 5.9:
p1 - ca. 110 ft., 1 bolt where it steepens up to 5.8 after 70 ft. of 5.5 to 5.7
(my buddy led that one)

p2 - ca. 110 ft, 1 bolt 10 ft up protects the 5.9 crux, one blue alien or blue 3CU placement after 70 more feet of 5.7 - 5.8.
(my lead, scary as hell, but now I know why it's a four-star mega-classic)

The rest should be educational regarding runout ethics:

Jet Stream, 5.10b RX : 75 feet, 2 bolts. Cruxes well-protected, anything easier, runout: WE TOPROPED IT! Not because we and the bolts would get chopped, but because how it's protected is none of my goddamn business until I'm ready to lead it! Even here in OK, there are other 10b's with gear or more bolts I can go climb if I want to.

Snow White, 5.10b, RX: same story. Hella fun climb. Expect to head-point it someday. Maybe I'll "headpoint" after a dozen more times on TR. Maybe not. So what?

El Tesoro, 5.10a, R: 130 ft, 5 bolts, runouts over easier ground up to about 5.9 - ORIGINALLY NAMED "Last of the Dead Guys," a solo which was retro-bolted (on lead, WITH PERMISSION from Senor Raleigh) -

Just friggin' ask. Did anyone bother asking could they please add bolts, on the "retardedly bolted" route you are talking about? Home slice has put up enough routes, to probably let y'all water something down to your level, if you just gotta lead it for some reason.

But why do you have to? It's a wide world.


superbum


Nov 23, 2005, 10:02 PM
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Dingus, I'm a bit confused where you stand. On Sept 20th you wrote that HRB "never should have been retrod", then in your last post you said if you were going to climb it now you'd "sure as heck bring a bolt kit". So is retrobolting without permission wrong, or is it ok but only when you're seriously scared?

Hi Lars

Let me see if I can explain my thought process on this. I'll start with personal responsibility. As stated, no one owes me a safe ascent, period. They don't owe me any routes, any climbing time, a gym membership, nothing.

So when I start up a rock, any rock, I do so with the intention of assuming 100% responsibility my own ass. Now I compromise that ideal, often. I'll clip bolts I didn't place and then run it out above them for example. But when I choose to do that, I am still exercising my personal responsibility to protect my own ass.

As a leader, on any given piece of rock, it is up to me to safeguard my own passage or suffer the consequences. I can't cede the consequences so I won't cede the responsibility.

That's the basic framework of my thinking.

Now to retrobolting. I'm afraid I have no pat answer, no concrete position from which to assail those who disagree. I happen to believe in situational ethics in our sport. What would represent bad style retrobolting in one place would or could be a community spirited positive in another. I'm down with that.

For the eastern Californian crag in question, the location, the histories of climbing on the East Side, the FA party and their respective histories, retrobolting Hair Raiser Buttress was *nearly* as controversial as retrobolting Bachar Yerian would be... guaranteed to start a fight. I have to believe that the retrobolters either didn't know (stupid), didn't care (unaware) or did it in spite or to spite (likely a component of their decision).

It showed a complete lack of respect to retrobolt Hair Raiser. It set the stage for futher retrobolt intrusions, all in the name of good climbing of course. We NEED another 5.9 face climb, right? Desperately I guess.

Now back to the responsibility thing. As I said earlier, there isn't a committee and we can't (yet, thank god) appeal to the government. Our styles and ethics are displayed one climber at a time, one route at a time, one ascent at a time. Each is a singular event, and only becomes part of the community as a data point so to speak. Graph all the data points and you have a picture of the community... NOT the other way around.

In other words, you don't point to some mythical Climber's Town and expect beause people live in that place they will all act the same, think the same. There's no mayor or city counsel, its more a refugee camp than it is a town. Each climber/refugee has a different story to tell.

Higgins et al exercised their privilege to climb Hair Raiser Buttress in a style that suited their desires. One data point. Many people climbed the route in that form, it had freaking stars in thd oldest guide. I turned away from it personally.

Then you have the retrobolter(s), exercising their privilege to retrobolt. Remember, there's no mayor, or committee or rules, even, preventing them from doing this. Just our conventions as climbers. But just as clearly, they knew going in that others in their community would not approve.

So these others? They can't appeal to the mayor, the committee, the rulebook, or even their peers; no one has authority. Yet just as clearly, the conventional styles of the area were violated and tradition minded climbers had good reason to be alarmed over this encroachment.

So someone chopped it. That person exercised her privilege just as did the retrobolters.

Now old Dingus is standing at the base of this X route. If I were to launch out across that 40 foot run, I would do so with a bolt kit in hand at this stage in my life. When I was younger I might have been a bit more cavilier about my life to be honest. I might still, quien sabe?

But I might not. Its my life, this is the point I've been trying to make. Dying for some stupid principle of rock climbing, mostly the principles of others (!), is about the STUPIDEST THING ON EARTH.

I'll put a bolt in your great great grandma's headstone if I have to (no offence), if it means I live instead of die. Its MY responsibility. Its MY life. That consideration supercedes ALL DISCUSSION OVER STYLE, all respect for tradition, all ethics are wasted breath in the face of imminent death.

It is up to the leader to safeguard her passage. It isn't up to anyone else. She has the privilege to drill at any point.

Am I saying that I or anyone else should go retrobolt Hair Raiser again? No. What I am saying is no one owes any of you a safe ascent of the route. Period.

For the record, I have no intention of retrobolting this route. All I said was, I would take a bolt kit up that pitch, if I were to lead it. Its MY ass, no one else's. Fear not, I take a bolt kit up a lot of routes, both uncharted and well documented. I don't go up on a trade route wall without one for example.

I think we have lost, no wrong word. I don't think that sense of self-sufficiency in thinking and in deed, are well-developed in today's climbing masses. I think many climbers today would rail, impotently, at the evil-doers who chop, with nary a notion that is it up to THEM, and them alone, individually, to find their way in this sport.

I don't cede my right to drill to save my own ass to anyone, anywhere, anytime and I certainly won't die over a stupid principle. That's sorta a bottom line for me.

DMT

So well put, I quoted the whole thing.

Think before you act..consider, mull over, weigh the facts, visualize the outcome, then just fcking do what you are gonna do and be honest about it afterwards.

I like a little direct action monkeywrenching from time to time, but I also like protecting my own ass...Either way envolves NOT compromising.


kalcario


Nov 23, 2005, 10:42 PM
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*Do you think our sport is richer or poorer for harboring the few true x-rated routes that are in existence? Do you think a bolted X rated route is always an abomination? Is there room for diversity in your climbing world? Does it all have to be pasteurized? All of it??? *

No, it doesn't. In fact, every route on the planet longer than, say, 40 feet (taller, I suppose, if it's Glacier Point Apron angle), bolted or not, is X-rated. X-rated means if you fall, you die, therefore anything taller than 40' is X-rated. Nothing is pasteurized - simply leave the rope behind, and it's as if Louis Pasteur was never born. Not all FA'ers exercised perfect judgement all the time, and creating bolted routes with X-rated groundfall runouts smacks more of egotism and arrogance than it does of sound judgement and common sense. And we can't have this Ayn Rand, libertarian nonsense where one person is free to drill, and the next is free to chop, because the rock gets fucked up; there has to be a compromise between those who want to die if they fall and those who don't. And the workable compromise is, if you want to die, you free solo. If you don't, rope up and clip the gear. The Want-To-Die-If-I-Fall crowd can't, or shouldn't, have it both ways, mainly because there's no practical reason for it. X-rated means if you fall you die, which means the rope and bolts are useless, and useless bolts should either be chopped, or put enough in so they're not useless.


fracture


Nov 27, 2005, 7:58 PM
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A route like the type he is describing was recently retro-bolted at one of my local crags. There was an editors' note in the last Rock & Ice (written by Jeff Jackson) complaining about it---it was a Duane Raleigh FA. (Of course, the note did not describe the retarded way the route had been bolted)

If the "retarded way" was old-style Raleigh, it probably involved protecting the crux if there was a stance, and running out anything easier.

Falling from the crux was a decker, as I already mentioned (if you had read it).

In reply to:
Just friggin' ask. Did anyone bother asking could they please add bolts, on the "retardedly bolted" route you are talking about?

As I said, the people who did the retro thought they had permission.

However, they are also members of a democratically elected committee which oversees bolting at the crag in question through an agreement with the state. They don't actually have any obligation to get his permission. And theoretically they represent what the local climbing community who elected them would like (and unlike Duane, those people still climb at E-Rock).


lensign


Dec 1, 2005, 7:03 AM
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Dingus,

So let me see if I've got your "situational" ethics thing down:

I am ultimately responsible for my choices and my safety. Got it.

No ethical principle of rock climbing is worth dying for. Yup, I agree.

There is no one with jurisdiction over rock climbing, nor do we want there to be, therefore we are free to do as we choose whenever and wherever we choose. Hmmm... I think there is a de-facto self appointed police force in climbing - climbers who act like our surfing friends and physically assault those they don't agree with.

If I feel my life is threatened, even on an established route, it is ok for me to drill a bolt regardless of what anyone else thinks and even though I am responsible for getting myself in that situation. That's out there, but, ok, I'll go with that.

If someone decides they don't like a bolt that someone else put in, it is within their rights to remove it even though another climber may come along expecting it to be there and unknowingly put themselves into a hazardous situation for which they alone are responsible (they should have carried a bolt kit like you would have in case they ran into trouble, right?). Hmmm... gotta say we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Also, I'm a bit alarmed that the rock may end up looking like swiss cheese after several bolting/chopping cycles.

If someone other than dingus comes along and adds bolts to HRB erroneously thinking they had the permission of all the first assentionists, then that is retrobolting and that is wrong, even though they may have felt the situation warranted such action at the time and you may have felt the situation warranted it should you have been in their shoes? That smacks of hipocracy.

What's my point here? Simply this: Dingus, most of what you say makes sense, but I can find no convincing argument that a bolted rock climb should permanently be defined by the first ascent party. Did they leave the rock the way they found it? Should they get to determine the way that piece of rock is climbed permanently simply because they had the historical fortune to be there first? Does anyone "own" a climb? Do we have to climb exactly like they did to be as good/worthy/valuable/admired as we percieve them? A rock climb is no Mona Lisa, no work of fine art. It is simply a possible pathway of traveling from point A to point B, in other words, a trail. Do we never alter a trail?

Lars


lensign


Dec 1, 2005, 8:24 AM
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No, it doesn't. In fact, every route on the planet longer than, say, 40 feet (taller, I suppose, if it's Glacier Point Apron angle), bolted or not, is X-rated. X-rated means if you fall, you die, therefore anything taller than 40' is X-rated. Nothing is pasteurized - simply leave the rope behind, and it's as if Louis Pasteur was never born. Not all FA'ers exercised perfect judgement all the time, and creating bolted routes with X-rated groundfall runouts smacks more of egotism and arrogance than it does of sound judgement and common sense. And we can't have this Ayn Rand, libertarian nonsense where one person is free to drill, and the next is free to chop, because the rock gets f--- up; there has to be a compromise between those who want to die if they fall and those who don't. And the workable compromise is, if you want to die, you free solo. If you don't, rope up and clip the gear. The Want-To-Die-If-I-Fall crowd can't, or shouldn't, have it both ways, mainly because there's no practical reason for it. X-rated means if you fall you die, which means the rope and bolts are useless, and useless bolts should either be chopped, or put enough in so they're not useless.

Kalcario, I should have read your response more carefully before submitting my last post. I couldn't agree more. Just what I was trying to say, only said much better. Strong work!

Please, will someone who enjoys this kind of labor go replace a few of those chopped bolts on HRB? I'll pay for the new hardware.

BTW: does anyone have any idea who this "ROCA" (run out climbing association) is? Can someone who knows them get them to read this discussion site and talk to the climbing community before they go chop something else? Maybe they can educate us on the finer points of chopping - is it better style to chop on lead or is rap-chopping acceptable? :wink: Is it their goal to chop every retrobolt, or just the ones on the routes they are capable of climbing?

Lars


dingus


Dec 1, 2005, 8:34 AM
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Re: Retro bolts chopped at Hair Raiser Buttress [In reply to]
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What's my point here? Simply this: Dingus, most of what you say makes sense, but I can find no convincing argument that a bolted rock climb should permanently be defined by the first ascent party.

Maybe you're looking for absolutes in a world of gray?

In reply to:
Did they leave the rock the way they found it? Should they get to determine the way that piece of rock is climbed permanently simply because they had the historical fortune to be there first? Does anyone "own" a climb? Do we have to climb exactly like they did to be as good/worthy/valuable/admired as we percieve them?

No! We don't HAVE to do anything! That's the whole point of my original post. We are each 'island nations' fully capable of doing our own thing. I suggest you stop trying to define everything to the point where no mystery remains. This isn't a sport of rules darn it!

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A rock climb is no Mona Lisa, no work of fine art.

And that is precisely where you and I part ways. Now I'll be blunt, I think the Mona Lisa is a terrible painting. I think it sucks. The ONLY reason it has any fame atall is because of who painted it. If you examine it closely, you will note many, many flaws. Those flaws could be fixed, repaired, made better than the original, yet we resist the temptation.

There is no need for a long diatribe here. But I am sick of 'silly-logic' that spins a particular style or stance out to the nth degree, rendering the point 'silly.' Extrapolating the HRB to other routes, exporting that style wholesale, asking, 'what, can we NEVER upgrade a route???' is silly logic annd frankly Lars its a bit insulting. I'm not going to engage in a silly logic discussion.

I will discuss facts. Here are some:

1. California, the Sierra and east side in particular, has a long trad style ethical history that predates you, me and everyone else on this board save Gill.

2. That same inherentance gave us other styles, other ethics, that are often mixed, but just as often stand on their own as well. You won't see me casting silly logic to argue those styles out of existence either.

3. If you want to receive respect, you have to dish it out. SIMPLE AS THAT.

4. Not all routes use or provide the same levels of protection.

5. Here in California and elsewhere an ethic of respecting the FA has developed over time. It is this ethic you and others seek to invalidate. You folks tend to treat it like a rule, when in fact it is a guideline. We don't have rules. It belongs in the realm of #3 above - respect.

6. HRB was established by one of the leading proponents of the California trad style. A style many of us to this day admire, respect and pursue to one extent or another. When someone proposes rebolting that route, I have to ask WHY??? Why THAT PARTICULAR ROUTE? There are hundreds of thousands of routes in California and hundreds of thousands more await their first caress. So why that route?

It can only be interpreted one way... those bolts may as well been added to Tom Higgin's forehead, such was the 'in your face' nature of the insult.

Insult. That's right. Insult. Those retrobolts not only were direct insults to Higgins style, they were an insult to those of us who climb here and still respect that style. It was ann insult to the commmunity that said my wishes supercede all others. They were an insult to every first ascent party that has ever divulged their new routes under the assumption, heretofore granted, that the syle of the FA would be respected.

So when you get right down to it, the Mona Lisa is an apt analogy. We have a route, it isn't the end all be all of routes, its a buttress out in the desert. The rock isn't even that great, comparatively speaking. You spin your silly logic to apply my call for respect to the nth degree and I just spin it back...

I have heard not one compelling argument for retrobolting HRB that doesn't come down to 'because I want to.'

Well hell, we all want a lot of things our of climbing. Many of these things are in direct opposition to one another. The only way we can hope to get along and avoid the iron hand of government regulation is through community respect. Respecting each others' works has accomplished that deed for decades. Now many new comers, a lot of whom are ignorant of that history, let along Tom Higgins' role in it, would like to pave that history over out of convenience and greed, soley because they want to. Never mind they could hike or drive for a few more minutes and find routes or FA possibilities more in keepinng eith THEIR STYLE, no!

They want to pave over OUR history, the very same one they know nothing about. Well pardon me for objecting, but I think that sucks.

But I'll conclude the with the point from which I began, this is the wild west. We can each do as we please, largely speaking. Given that framework of anarchy, calling for respect of existing styles and routes, acknowledging and indeed, showing that respect, will help, 10, 20, 30 years from now, these very same people to protect their climbing legacies when the next generations start invalidating all THEY DID.

The only thing between us and government regulation is common respect. This is the hand we were dealt. None of us invented the sport, wrote the rules, created the route or penned the guidebook. We can merely show our respect for the gift, or we can take it back to Walmart and exchange it for some other piece of mass produced shit.

I say screw the Walmart mentality. HRB belongs on the Antique Road Show...

LEAVE IT THE FUCK ALONE!

Such are my thoughs Lars. Cheers

DMT


asandh


Dec 1, 2005, 8:54 AM
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Re: Retro bolts chopped at Hair Raiser Buttress [In reply to]
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:)


dingus


Dec 1, 2005, 9:01 AM
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The final substance of your post.

DMT


jv


Dec 1, 2005, 10:05 AM
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Re: Retro bolts chopped at Hair Raiser Buttress [In reply to]
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I agree with Dingus. The first ascent guideline has been followed for decades in this area and it works well. It protects these routes from climbers who don't learn how to manage their fear and resent those who do, and it prevents the damage of cyclic retrobolting/chopping episodes.

If you don't have express permission of the first ascent party to add bolts, or if the FAists are dead, a real concensus by the climbers who use the area most often, then leave it alone. There are plenty of sport bolted routes and "safe" trad-bolted routes on the East Side. Why does this particular route need to be altered against the express wishes of Higgins?


lensign


Dec 9, 2005, 2:24 AM
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Re: Retro bolts chopped at Hair Raiser Buttress [In reply to]
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Why should HRB in particular have bolts added?

First, it's on a small crag out in the middle of nowhere, where nobody but climbers and offroad enthsiasts go, not in a pristine national treasure like T-meadows where some Sierra Clubber is going to get bent out of shape if they see some bolts.

Second, in it's pre-chopped state, it was the only route in the entire region that I have found that you could climb a reasonably well protected bolted multi-pitch slab route on good rock at a moderate grade. (it wasn't completely sterilized, either, it still had the issues getting to the first bolt and some runouts after that). You guys write like there are an infinite supply of other 4-5 star bolted slab routes in the Eastern Sierra in a location that doesn't require hours of approach and is climbable year-around. Yeah? Where? I haven't found any equivalent routes in the area that weren't either really run out, or trad routes with big runouts between questionable gear. I don't think climbing well bolted juggy steep 5.9s in the Owens River Gorge prepares you at all for routes like HRB. I think you may have forgotten what it is like climbing low-rated routes put up by people who didn't think they needed to be protected. I used to think HRB was a great way to learn slab climbing in a relatively safe environment so you could take your skills to other similar but more dangerous routes like Snake Dike. You also imply that there are plenty of similar high quality low-hanging fruit for easy FAs in whatever style I choose if I'd just drive/walk a few more minutes. Ok... Have you *seen* the latest Bishop Area Rock Climbs edition? Every little outcropping taller than about 25 feet in the entire area is bristling with routes. I have searched my neighborhood (Tahoe) for similar climbing terrain (including by airplane), only to find, yup, it's been climbed, it's r/x-rated, and, nope, the FAs won't give their blessing to adding any gear. Accesable good quality rock of moderate grade is not an unlimited resource and if a large portion of it is tied up in untouchable X-rated death routes out of "respect", what's the use of that?

Third, I still don't see how it is an insult to FAs to add bolts to their routes - they still get credit for the FA. I have put up a route (woo-hoo! yeah, I know - a whole pitch even - I am so not a climbing god.) and, heck, I'd feel honored if anyone ever went and tried to climb it or cared enough to want to modify it. Anyone who wants to climb it the "old way" can skip the additional gear. I think it's just eletism and egotism to say "you have to climb it just the way I did - if you're not tough enough, piss off and find something else." Can't you disagree with someone and still respect them?

Lars


healyje


Dec 9, 2005, 2:57 AM
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Third, I still don't see how it is an insult to FAs to add bolts to their routes - they still get credit for the FA. I have put up a route (woo-hoo! yeah, I know - a whole pitch even - I am so not a climbing god.) and, heck, I'd feel honored if anyone ever went and tried to climb it or cared enough to want to modify it. Anyone who wants to climb it the "old way" can skip the additional gear. I think it's just eletism and egotism to say "you have to climb it just the way I did - if you're not tough enough, piss off and find something else." Can't you disagree with someone and still respect them?

Lars

Yes, you can disagree with someone and still respect them - and, as Dingus keeps trying to explain, you show that respect by not retrobolting their routes...


fracture


Dec 9, 2005, 9:21 AM
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Re: Retro bolts chopped at Hair Raiser Buttress [In reply to]
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Yes, you can disagree with someone and still respect them - and, as Dingus keeps trying to explain, you show that respect by not retrobolting their routes...

But that's also a completely arbitrary definition of respect. I like the anarchistic view Dingus preaches (which does not apply in some managed areas---like the one I mentioned earlier in this thread), but to be honest I don't really understand how he manages to preach the "wild west" while he simultaneously seems to be defending FA "ownership". Property is theft, man!

So how about having some of the old-school FA's respect some of the desires of new climbers---or other climbers who are smart enough to not want to die? Why should these guys (who in some cases got fat and don't even climb anymore) be allowed to wield dictatorial control over something they didn't even really "create" (unless they chipped it significantly, I suppose) in the first place---just because they peed on it first?

I love explaining this whole "FA-ownership" bullshit aspect of the sport to people who don't climb, by the way. It is hilarious how climbers take things that have nothing to do with climbing rocks way too seriously. :lol:


dingus


Dec 9, 2005, 9:49 AM
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but to be honest I don't really understand how he manages to preach the "wild west" while he simultaneously seems to be defending FA "ownership".

You completely mischaracterize my position. I don't feel the FA owns the route. I just think retrobolters have even less a claim.

But as I have so painstakenly laid out (only to be ignored through statements like yours) is that we are all free to do as we wish largely, on public land. There is no valid ownership claim.

Go bolt the fucker if you want! NO ONE IS STOPPING YOU.

Bet you someone else chops it though.

You can respect the spirit if the FA or not. The consequences are not yours or mine to control. Our anarchy of FA respect has served us well in these areas. There is no need for a sport crag mentality of group ownership and gym-like maintenance programs.

Wild west simply means this... the responsibility for your actions lies solely with you. There ain't no sheriff or mommy government to resolve our disputes. I think that is the proper way, as the other path lives SCUBA like regulations which would totally suck.

The retrobolters need to restrain themselves.

DMT


dingus


Dec 9, 2005, 9:55 AM
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So how about having some of the old-school FA's respect some of the desires of new climbers---or other climbers who are smart enough to not want to die?

Talk about BULLSHIT! We're talking ONE ROUTE, in California. ONE ROUTE that was established before most of these kids were BORN. Almost without exception, the old dogs I know hold a 'when in Rome' attitude. Too bad you 'I gotta have it NOW NOW NOW and I want it all and I'll pave over anything for MY GRATIFICATION crowd' can't do the same.

Its because you have no respect. You get what you give. Amen.

DMT


fracture


Dec 9, 2005, 10:00 AM
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In reply to:
but to be honest I don't really understand how he manages to preach the "wild west" while he simultaneously seems to be defending FA "ownership".

You completely mischaracterize my position.

But to be fair, I also said I don't really understand your position :)

(And I still have some trouble grokking it).

In reply to:
I don't feel the FA owns the route. I just think retrobolters have even less a claim.

I understand this.

My view is that the FA'ist does not own the route, and that the retrobolters have an equal claim as everyone else who actually climbs in the area. If the FA'ist no longer climbs in the area, then retrobolters have an infinitely greater claim than the FA does.

FWIW.

And I reject the idea that this has anything to do with whether they respect the FA'ist as a person.

8^)


dingus


Dec 9, 2005, 10:15 AM
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I understand this.

My view is that the FA'ist does not own the route, and that the retrobolters have an equal claim as everyone else who actually climbs in the area. If the FA'ist no longer climbs in the area, then retrobolters have an infinitely greater claim than the FA does.

Infinitely. Restated, the FA has no claim at all. That idea is still being rejected at the sharp end of a cold chisel. The FAist is perfectly able to come back and chop chop chop.

In reply to:
FWIW.

Now that you're not trolling so hard, its worth a lot actually.

In reply to:

And I reject the idea that this has anything to do with whether they respect the FA'ist as a person.

8^)

So do I. Though I would encourage respect for the elders of our sport in most situations. I say respect the First Ascent, not the first ascender, or rather I say respect the spirit of the FA, which allows a bit more wiggle room.

No, the case in point, HRB? Retrobolting in that case WAS definitely a swipe of disrepect aimed squarely at Higgins. Purposeful. AS in, 'up yours higgins!' as the bolts went in. Probably the vast majority of retrobolts are not done this way, but I surely suspect it in this case.

DMT

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