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andy_lemon
Nov 16, 2001, 7:32 PM
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JDS: Well! I notice you climb in So. Illinois... great to see that. Maybe we can run into each other sometime as I climb all the time a J-Falls.
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jds100
Nov 17, 2001, 1:24 AM
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AndyLemon, I only meant to point out that you attributed a position to Adam that was not his; he was paraphrasing a hypothetical and opposite position to clrify his own. The rest of the post was in humor, directed more toward Adam.
Mike (saltspringer), my analogy to painting was more to consider whether or not we accept a climb (first ascent) as a work of art, to be observed, enjoyed, and experienced in its intended and original state. If we come in later and add bolts to make a runout "safer", then that's not a new blank canvas, it's an altered one. My question is still, how far do we have a "right" to go in making alterations to this admitedly limited resource?
I completely agree that we do, and we should, exercise judgement and sound reasoning in choosing to accept or reject the legacies from earlier times and climbers. If your sense of bolting "safely" is that a 5.12 climb should be bolted accordingly, and a 5.7 climb should be bolted accordingly, I agree completely. If someone wants to retro-bolt a 5.12 climb to make it more accessible, more convenient, and "safer" for a 5.8 or 5.9 climber to try it (and hangdog bolt to bolt, pull up on quickdraws, etc.), then I strongly object to that. It sounds like you, Mike, have a similar notion that I have, that is that a route "tells" us how it should be protected, with its features and available stances. If a 5.12 climber sparsely bolts a 5.7 to "make a statement", then the statement he has made is probably not the one he intended; he's only proven his selfish stupidity.
I also agree, in principle and practice, with the notion of bolting responsibly (of taking responsibility for one's establishing of a bolted line and how it is protected), but I still would say that every individual climber must still accept responsibility for his/her choice to attempt a climb, given knowledge of his/her abilities, and knowledge (or lack thereof) of the climb and the area standards. I would not want to see someone coming back after the fact, trying to accuse, or file a lawsuit against someone, for "poorly" bolting a route.
Let common sense rule. Let there be consensus of standards and practices within areas, and hopefully country- and continent-wide. I'd rather see people using words like "responsible" and "common sense", rather than "safe", because the former have to be more thoroughly thought out, while the later carries with it too much in the form of assumption. You can see that when people try to explain what "safe" means. "Responsible" more likely carries with it a sense of respect for the resource and, hopefully, the history and tradition of the area, and of climbing in general.
I don't think a 'death route' makes sense, either; I just don't want unilateral action taken to change it. Depending on a lot of variables, including its proximity to a popular area, it could more responsible to retro-bolt it, or it could be better eligible for a route left unclimbed.
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larryclimb
Nov 26, 2001, 4:03 AM
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I believe bolts are an important part of climbing. In the right places they are vital. In the wrong places (as Adam's mentioned in J-tree its a disgrace). We have a Great sport climbing area in New Hampsire that climbers from all over the world come to called Rumney. There is some trad climbs but like I said it is known for its Great sports routes. In 1986 a F.A. trad route was put up. Since this is a sport area it never got climbed (or hardly ever). This summer this climb was bolted (with permission from the F.A.) It is now a popular route. Was this the right thing to do? In this situation I think it was and so do the F.A.
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saltspringer
Nov 26, 2001, 9:44 AM
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A trad climb bolted to promote more traffic? Nope, that's not right at all...it sets up a scenario of bolting all trad routes simply because placing gear is more difficult than clipping a bolt. If there is ample opportunity for good gear placements on a climb bolts should not be there: period! The route that you're talking about may be popular now but it has lost alot by being bolted: it has lost the ability to encourage people to learn to place gear so that they can climb a variety of routes all over the country: bolted routes exist in areas of traditional climbing where there is no place for pro so why not keep a trad route up in a sport climbing area as an example of something different? After all, isn't climbing largely about diversity? Otherwise, we'd all be setting up convenient routes in the gym...
Good to see that everyone has calmed down a bit on this forum topic at least: let's continue to keep it friendly,
out,
Mike
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jds100
Nov 26, 2001, 11:09 PM
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One of my consistent tenets has been that, in general, local consensus on standards should be respected. I would never advocate chopping those bolts, but I really agree with Mike on this: that just reduced the resource into submission, down to the level of climbers who won't learn tough trad climbing. I've got the greatest respect for the Rumney climbers, who are advancing hard sport climbing, but I don't agree at all with the decision, even with the agreement of the FA (good move to ask, though), to retro-bolt that route. It was the rock that told you that the route was trad leadable, not the climbers. It's a short step to chipping, now, to make more routes accessible.
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squeeks
Nov 30, 2001, 2:56 AM
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my personal opinion is that until you can afford a full rack, stay in the damn gyms or find some routes you can top rope. i personally think that all bolts should come out. if you cant climb it with out leaving shit(bolts) behind then you werent meant to climb it!
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kagunkie
Nov 30, 2001, 4:55 AM
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I like you'r attitude Squeeks.
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fiend
Nov 30, 2001, 5:27 AM
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Why is it that those who are violently opposed to bolting of any kind are also those that couldn't climb a hard sport route if their life depended on it?
Trad people, you will never climb 5.14 on gear. You will stay on your 5.9s and the more adventurous among you will head up to the 5.11s but none of you will ever touch the hard 5.12s which sport climbers will walk. There are a few trad people who pull down the big numbers..Ron Kauk for one, but he climbs sport as well. He may be a good for nothing bolt monkey, but do you think maybe that's why he was able to pull off Magic Line, 5.14b?
If you can't climb at this level then why talk about ground up bolting of these climbs? What's the big deal between rap bolting a featureless wall and bolting it on lead? Other than testosterone fueled ego.
Some of you have complained about bolts destroying the rock. How many of you drive gas gussling trucks, vans or SUVs?
Raise your hand if you are a complete anti-bolter.
Now keep your hand up if you've never clipped a bolt before. (rap/belay stations count as well)
Now if there is anyone left then keep your hand up if you climb harder than 5.10
Anyone have their hand up?
You guys are like meat eating vegetarians.
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pianomahnn
Nov 30, 2001, 5:32 AM
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Once again...
Fiend = win
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squeeks
Nov 30, 2001, 5:40 AM
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tell you what. when i do climb a 5.14, if im not able to use any pro, ill free it. you know what i dont know why so many of you get offended at our opinions. maybe you are just insecure about your climbing abilities since you cant hang with traditional climbers. just a thought. dont take it personal.
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squeeks
Nov 30, 2001, 5:44 AM
Post #86 of 137
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fiend hasnt won yet cause ive only gotten started! nice try though, really.
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fiend
Nov 30, 2001, 5:49 AM
Post #87 of 137
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I get offended by the Trad is the Way opinion.
I have nothing against trad climbing, I don't attack it and don't consider it to be a lesser form of climbing. I respect it and admire those that push its limits.
But I hate those that will constantly trash sport climbing as being an activity for the weak and cowardly. Trad is one form of climbing, some people need to be more open minded and not be so quick to jump on the band wagon against progression.
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squeeks
Nov 30, 2001, 6:05 AM
Post #88 of 137
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by all means i am not saying trad is the way. i dont hate nor dislike sport climbers. i have the same respect for all climbers of all abilities. the only thing i really dislike is that everytime i climb, i see new shit, most of which appears to serve no purpose. i know that bolts will never be completely removed from all routes. i just hate to see more go in. there is plenty out there already.
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pianomahnn
Nov 30, 2001, 6:07 AM
Post #89 of 137
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Ignorance only breeds more ignorance.
I see no hope for sqeeks offering anything to this thread.
[edited because of a typo]
[ This Message was edited by: pianomahnn on 2001-11-29 23:23 ]
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squeeks
Nov 30, 2001, 6:16 AM
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one day you will see the light my friend. until then we can all continue to be opinionated as we are now. never the less, climb on.
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pianomahnn
Nov 30, 2001, 7:06 AM
Post #91 of 137
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Nah, I don't think so.
I'll definately climb on; some freshly bolted sport routes.
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naturalhigh
Nov 30, 2001, 9:31 AM
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While I climb mostly trad, I think that bolted sport routes are great, especially for pushing your technical skills higher and higher.
Imagine what the hardest rock climb in the US would be right now if we had abstained from rap bolting? You think that those 5.14s were bolted on lead? As sport routes push climbing to a new level, trad follows close behind. Just look at the new free alpine route that Bubu just completed. I think he may have used a bolt or two, but all in all it went free onsight at 5.13b I believe. Astonishing. Think he's never sport climbed?
To sum up my opinion: Trad is the ultimate in climbing (personal opinion); clean, self reliant and both mentally and physically challenging. Sport climbing, however, should be equally recognized for the contributions it has made to the sport overall, especially when it comes to opening it up to new members and to helping us tradies push our limits, allowing us to go back and do even harder trad routes .
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pianomahnn
Nov 30, 2001, 5:31 PM
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I like naturalhigh. You've got your head on straight.
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fusion
Nov 30, 2001, 5:54 PM
Post #94 of 137
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If the route is already bolted.. don't change it. Come back to it later when you have the experience you need to climb it like it was origionally climbed. Or add pro if you must..
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kagunkie
Dec 1, 2001, 3:44 AM
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Where is my post from yesterday? Did someone delete it?
Its not allowed to delete posts without messaging the poster you know?
[ This Message was edited by: kagunkie on 2001-12-01 10:58 ]
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cragstar
Aug 8, 2002, 4:25 PM
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I have nothing against clipping bolts off of a route IF... you made the first ascent with trad gear and someone came after and bolted it. but if someone wanted to create a sport route on a crack why take that away from someone who doesn't climb trad?
[ This Message was edited by: cragstar on 2002-08-08 09:25 ]
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climbsomething
Aug 8, 2002, 4:32 PM
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AAAAH! A BOLTING WARS THREAD BOLTING WARS THREAD! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
That is all.
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cragstar
Aug 8, 2002, 4:36 PM
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sorry just a local situation forced me into ressurecting this topic
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fishypete
Aug 8, 2002, 4:54 PM
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Please let this die.
That is all.
There is nothing more to add.
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climbsomething
Aug 8, 2002, 7:46 PM
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'sawl good, cragstar, I wasn't yelling at you, just shrieking that the bolting/trad-sport debates in general make me dry heave
now, as fishy said, no mas!
THAT IS ALL!
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