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zozo
Dec 6, 2005, 4:22 PM
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Grappling and ground fighting are taught in just about all forms of MA that I know of. Ive known some wrestlers who came to MA and were very good grapplers and others who were so stuck in the wrestling mindset that even I could submit them! Trust me, Kempo is more than Kata.
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tradman
Dec 6, 2005, 4:25 PM
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Dough, my experience is that grappling works well in ring and cage fighting because many of the most effective striking techniques, and especially those which work on the floor, are against the rules. As an example, how many fighters would go to the ground if head-butting was allowed? How long would fights last if using the elbows was allowed, especially on the floor? How long would they last if striking to the groin, neck or eyes was allowed? How many takedown attempts would you see if kicking, kneeing and stamping on downed opponents was allowed? The set of techniques used in MMA and "all-in" fighting is limited by practicality, but you must accept that the fighting shown is correspondingly artificial.
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dough
Dec 6, 2005, 4:59 PM
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I accept that most contests are artificial. But I would say that most all out no hold bared street fights are finished on the ground grappling. Would you want a world or national class wrestler put you in a submission hold? Ok, would you want that very strong, fit tough athlete pounding on you with his knees or elbows? Look at the example of Dan Severn who had a winning record in those so called "ultimate" fighting contests. Mr Severin was good national class ( not world class ) greco-roman wrestler and he was in his thirty's ( not at his prime ) The only athletes who could beat him were younger grapplers. Anyone from some formal diciplines were whipped. Not a real world example I give you that, but ponder that a bit.
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tradman
Dec 6, 2005, 5:09 PM
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Well, I see your point about the ring grappling, and it's certainly noticeable how many UFC bouts end on the floor. Also, judo players don;t seem to do as well as logic would indicate they should. Any opinion on why that is? Outdoors however I'd disagree with you. Street fights end when both people stop fighting. They may do that for a number of reasons, and their opponent being unable to continue may not necessarily be one of them. Hospital statistics show quite clearly that the majority of street fights end when a weapon of some sort becomes involved - a bottle, ashtray, knife, bat or whatever - or when the police turn up. The commonest injuries are head injuries from punches, kicks and blows from weapons. Broken limbs from grappling are uncommon.
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dough
Dec 6, 2005, 5:56 PM
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Coz' street fights are usually done between drunk and/or drug fueled idiots who just want to hit someone, and when that someone hits back they get even angrier and pull out a gun or a knive or break a bottle or pick up a chair. Ever see a policeman deal with a violent drunk? ( sans gun ) They grapple that flailing punching fool down on the ground then hurt him. They don't try to engage him with fisticuffs or foot play. That does not work.
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dough
Dec 6, 2005, 6:04 PM
Post #32 of 42
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In reply to: Also, judo players don;t seem to do as well as logic would indicate they should. Any opinion on why that is? . I would expect that Judo players are very good at takedowns and with certain types of submission holds but are tactically inflexible. For some reason they stay with the judo paradigm when something else is called for.
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zozo
Dec 6, 2005, 6:17 PM
Post #33 of 42
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Because of my size I WANT the fight to go to the ground and I will TRY to take it to the ground. In just about every scenario.
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zozo
Dec 7, 2005, 2:29 PM
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If your shorter and out weighed standing up will get you knocked on the ground anyway so you had better know how to groundfight. It all depends on context, that is why learning one style will get you nowhere. Kicking is great if you can get in there.
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arrettinator
Dec 7, 2005, 2:54 PM
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Most martial arts are defense oriented, while wrestling/grappling is mostly offense oriented. A "grappler" would have to get a hold of you to take you down. You learn how to deal w/ someone who tries to get a hold of you. I studied Tang Soo Do under Joe Goss and C.S. Kim, who taught Chuck Norris. He's no weakmo. That's for sure.
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danooguy
Dec 7, 2005, 3:02 PM
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Taekwondo, 4 years or so. Really enjoyed it. Also fought full contact for a time.
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htotsu
Dec 8, 2005, 5:40 AM
Post #38 of 42
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In reply to: I would expect that Judo players are very good at takedowns and with certain types of submission holds but are tactically inflexible. For some reason they stay with the judo paradigm when something else is called for. A judo martial artist in a judo competition has very good reason to stay within the judo paradigm. But a judo martial artist attacked in the street has other options. Those options are best taken advantage of if the judo martial artist has an open mind and uses her training as a starting point, not an end point. The same goes for a wrestler, incidentally. I second tradman and arrettinator - you can be a great wrestler, and guess what? If you can't get your opponent on the ground because a) s/he is quicker than you and knows how to evade, or b) s/he disables you first, then you don't get to show off how great a wrestler you are and it's all moot. My point from the start has been this: to assume that any one style is better than all of the others is simply foolish and uninformed. The wise fighter recognizes the strengths and limitations of various forms, and learns from them.
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squierbypetzl
Moderator
Dec 8, 2005, 5:50 AM
Post #39 of 42
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edit: sorry, thought IŽd errased this.
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meataxe
Dec 10, 2005, 10:00 PM
Post #40 of 42
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Wu Style Tai Chi Chuan... Includes: Locks, striking, kicking (below the waist), grappling. (and deadly chi blasts :-))
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deltav
Dec 12, 2005, 12:48 AM
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8 yeas kenpo, 4 years Gracie Jui-Jitsu, 3 years wing chun, 2 years Muay Thai. I find that the stretching, balance and mental focus come in handy out on the rock. Plus as someone mentioned before, kicking the shit out of someone every now and then helps in the stress dept.
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danooguy
Dec 12, 2005, 1:36 AM
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In reply to: Most "martial arts" ( boxing, judo, wrestling and to an extent jujitsu excepted ) deal with form and fantasy. You are partially right. Most programs do not allow full contact fighting until students have achieved advanced status because of the injuries that would take place during routine training of new techniques to less adept students. Also full contact practice requires that the body, especially the torso be highly conditioned to be able to absorb the blows. An unconditioned torso is a dream target for most fighters. As part of my training, I fought full contact for about 2 years. The only protection used were cups, mouthguards,and nunchukas training gloves which had a leather plate on the foreman so that we'd have fewer guys getting their forearms broken while blocking. I saw enough lightning-quick knockouts and broken bones to put your theory to rest quite handily. I learned more in those Wednesday classes that I learned in a month of the classes to which you refer, but to think that martial arts in general does not incorporate any full contact training is simply wrong. If you ever get a chance, go to a reputable Tae Kwon Do school and ask if you may watch the next time someone tests for black belt. The tests last for hours. As one part of the process they get a "volunteer" (called an "uki" if I recall correctly) to be the opponent for parts of the testing. At the end of the day, he's quite a mess even though he's chosen for his conditioning and strength and despite the fact that he's allowed to wear full body pads during the testing process. The man that trained me when I was younger showed me enough of his skills to convince me that I would never dream of going up against him with anything short of a firearm and even then I'd want the timing to be right and be granted plenty of distance. He's that fast, that powerful, and that aggressive. The ordinary "street brawler" would not have a prayer, regardless of size and "street skills." To this day, I respect my teacher very much as a fighter, a master, and a human being. As tradman said during his last few posts (wherein he made a series of most valid points) don't knock something until you are much more familiar with it.
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