|
talguy
Nov 28, 2005, 8:32 PM
Post #1 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 11, 2005
Posts: 26
|
I have read and seen that some people will apporach a mountain by skis if there is a long snow field. I have a small amount of ski experience(I'm not bad though) and no mountaineering experience, but am trying to get into it even though i am a broke college kid that backpacks all the time. I always read that people use AT bindings or telemarker bindings but i don't understand is what is the purpose of each type of binding i know from looking a pics of each that they are like Xcross binding. I also have read that people use ice climbing boots to ski is there like one of the above type of bindings that take these boots or just a certain make like the silvretta 500. Sorry for if most of you thin this is a stupid question and yes i did search my question found a couple of threads but they didn't answer my question so here it is.
|
|
|
|
|
cgailey
Nov 28, 2005, 8:49 PM
Post #2 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 6, 2004
Posts: 585
|
There are several options for ski approaches; which one you go with is dependent upon whether you want to actually descend on skis (i.e. make runs), just want to get somewhere for another purpose, what kind of boots you want to use, and whether carrying extra boots is a hassle for you.
Telemark gear, i.e. plastics or heavy leathers and relatively beefy skis (by todays standards), is good for someone whose purpose is the skiing...not so good for approaches as it is heavier and requires extra gear to be carried.
Backcountry XC gear is great for cruising around in lower angle terrain and skis with a waxless base (fish scales) are great for flats and rolling terrain. This gear is relatively inexpensive and can range from heavier duty step in or manual XC bindings with a simple low resistance attachment to 3 pin or 3 pin cable bindings (blurrs the lines with tele gear). This gear is lighter and less cumbersome for the tour; however, you still have to carry other gear.
AT gear is usually the best option for approaches as you can use your mountaineering boots, be they Koflachs or leathers equipped to take step in crampons. AT gear ranges from light and efficient "rando racing" setups like Scarpa F1's with Dynafits to beefy setups like the Garmont Adrenaline and Fritschi Freeride Bindings for yo-yoing runs in the backcountry on big skis.
The best option for mountaineers and ice climbers (IMHO) is a light, waxless ski in a shorter length with a binding like a Silvretta 500 or equivalent (older versions like the 300, 400 etc.) and climbing skins. This works great for getting to and fro with a minimum of extra gear and great efficiency.
Hope this helps....
|
|
|
|
|
talguy
Nov 28, 2005, 8:56 PM
Post #3 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 11, 2005
Posts: 26
|
so the AT binidng have better built in stabliity over the telemark bindings when using a mounaineering boot
|
|
|
|
|
aj_77
Nov 28, 2005, 9:40 PM
Post #4 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 18, 2004
Posts: 27
|
One thing to add-
AT gear gives you the ability to lock your heel down on the descent, giving you the closest thing to alpine skiing. But, using mountaineering boots with AT gear, you will lose almost all the performance of the ski on the descent.
Also, tele bindings provide resistance using a cable type binding or the like. I don't tele so I am not completely familiar with all the binding types, but they all provide some type of resistance to heel lift. That said the heel is not fixed to the ski on the descent like with AT gear.
Hope that helps...
|
|
|
|
|
talguy
Nov 28, 2005, 11:49 PM
Post #5 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 11, 2005
Posts: 26
|
Thanks alot that helps a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
kixx
Nov 28, 2005, 11:49 PM
Post #6 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 23, 2005
Posts: 178
|
Since gear is heavy and costs money I am all about making every dollar and every once count. That is why I modify everything to be multipurpose. Keeping asking "stupid questions" and then try them all out. The best advice I ever got for experimenting with ski equipment was to take every new idea to the local ski lift and use it. (usually more like try to use it). I experimented with everything and have settled on the best setup for me, although every year I have a new "stupid" idea to try out... so back to the lift lines I go. (Telemarking on waxless skis with mountaineering boots made for an entertaining day for the rest of the lift riders.) Also if anyone is going to be on exposed terrain they should always practice self arrest with an ice ax on skis at the local lift served hill.
That being said I use waxless skis with metal edges. The plastic mountaineering boots have a hole drilled through the front bail with a bolt inserted to fit with Solomon cross country bindings(free heel). This works great for approaches and returns to the parking lot only.
For back country downhill I use dedicated BC AT (fixed heal) gear since I still have not found a better setup for the nasty descents I seem to find myself on.
I'm still working on the ultimate all around set-up. Plastic inserts for mountaineering boots, snow shoe / ski cross breeds, old leather bindings, the list of foolishness from a curious mind can go on and on.
Experiment and learn
|
|
|
|
|
xp
Dec 1, 2005, 4:53 PM
Post #7 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 2, 2005
Posts: 29
|
In reply to: snow shoe / ski cross breeds
How did that work out? I just bought some 120 cm but haven't tried them out yet. So far I found the straps are too short for my burly Scarpas but fit my leathers.
|
|
|
|
|
pazer0
Dec 1, 2005, 5:39 PM
Post #8 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 18, 2005
Posts: 16
|
Tele skis are for skiing, up and down, but tele boots climb anything awful. Also, tele skiing requires another skill, not easily learned. IMO use AT bindings and your mountaineering boots for approaches. The descent won't be great fun but you're using the skis as a mode of transport for the real fun part, the climb. If you want to ski for the day, tele is great fun. Agree with other posts: practice at a ski area on bunny slopes and learn to self arrest with skis on. Good luck.
|
|
|
|
|
elvislegs
Dec 1, 2005, 5:48 PM
Post #9 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2002
Posts: 3148
|
i'll echo what others have said about tele.
if you want to have some of THE BEST fun you can have with your clothes on; buy tele gear, go to your local lift served ski hill, work the tele turn for a year or two, get trained in avy safety, buy a probe, shovel, beacon, etc. find a qualified partner, and get into the backcountry. once you have all this going for you, you will, by default, also have a fair (though imperfect) way to approach mountain routes as well.
if, however, you are going for only the utility of the approach, and want to be able to use it this season, then climbing boots and silveretta AT bindings, or cross country skis are a great choice.
cheers from an idaho pinhead,
-sean
|
|
|
|
|
highangle
Dec 1, 2005, 6:36 PM
Post #10 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 16, 2004
Posts: 151
|
Although it seems like restating what has already been said, here is what I found:
Telemarking is great fun, but definately a skill that must be practiced. Folks that are good at it can do it with a pack on, but I have never honed my skills that much.
XC is also great fun, but I have blown two pairs of light xc ski's trying to tele out. That makes for a really bad day when you have worthless sticks to use getting back to the car.
I picked up a pair of cheap ski's (Atomc tm-9's) and a pair of Silvretta 404's off of Ebay, 300 bucks into the setup, plus $80 for skins. Then made the BIG mistake of immediately setting off for the backcountry with a big pack without ever practicing. Climbing boots made me feel like I was learning to ski all over again, and the pack made it worse.
After several days riding the lifts and working on technique, I am now pretty confident in skiing out with a load. Just don't plan on the turns being really pretty.
Backcountry.com has a great deal on MX:7's, not a performance ski, but will get you going. They also have BD skins for about $80.
I would spring for the beefier setup, since you can then ski in further (with skins) and get out quicker than a cheaper XC outfit.
My $0.02.
|
|
|
|
|
maldaly
Dec 1, 2005, 9:33 PM
Post #11 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1208
|
One thing that hasn't been mentioned: If you're using an AT binding with plastic mountain boots, assume that the release function will not work. You won't be able to apply enough torque to activate the release mechanism. Best solution is to use short, fat skis (100 or 120's) and don't fall. You'll want those short skis anyway for going down those tight trails. There was some manufacturer (Kneissel?) that actually made skis just for this purpose. Find an old pair of Silveretta 404s to mount on them.
Mal
|
|
|
|
|
talguy
Dec 4, 2005, 6:53 AM
Post #12 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 11, 2005
Posts: 26
|
so telemark and at turns are the same
|
|
|
|
|
dr_monkey
Dec 4, 2005, 7:51 AM
Post #13 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 16, 2005
Posts: 81
|
Tele and AT turns are not the same, but contrary to popular beleif you can make decent alpine (i.e. oh s_ _ t ) turns in tele gear. This is all way beside the point.
It sounds like you are interested in faster aproaches to climbing rather than enjoying skiing. Skiing either style in the backcountry takes practice, but is worth the trouble. Speeding up an aproach much easier, especially if you have skied even just a little.
Having said that here is my suggestion, be it one of many. Find that pair of used silverettas mentioned previously. Use the boots you are climbing in and save money and weight. Get the cheapest, lightest, short fatties you can find used. Leave the bases all beat up and dry for grip then stash the skis when it gets to steep to stick. If you need skins to get up it, you are going to need skills to get back down.
Another binding option for this kind of use is made by stubai. I've seen a link somewhere around RC but can't find it.
Good Luck, and be safe.
|
|
|
|
|
talguy
Dec 4, 2005, 8:43 AM
Post #14 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 11, 2005
Posts: 26
|
thanks dr monkey i am interested in faster approaches but i also like to ski even though i don't do it a lot or own my own stuff
|
|
|
|
|
pico23
Dec 6, 2005, 5:13 AM
Post #15 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 14, 2003
Posts: 2378
|
In reply to: so the AT binidng have better built in stabliity over the telemark bindings when using a mounaineering boot
You can only use an AT binding with a climbing boot. However, compared to telemark it's still a bit clunky. Both have advantages though regardless of what the proponents of each spin off.
Backcountry XC and telemark are similar. Really BC XC with cable or 3 pin bindings is similar to the old school tele gear of the 70's and 80's. The newer gear makes it easier for people to beat the learning curve but the line between BCXC and tele is pretty blurred.
I remember you posted recently about what boots to buy for mountaineering. Seems like you need a lot of gear and if you are as poor of a college student as you say you might want to commit to one thing or another. Skiing can easily cost $750-2000 to get into, climbing about the same. Why not commit to one or the other for a year or two and then branch out.
|
|
|
|
|
pico23
Dec 6, 2005, 5:21 AM
Post #16 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 14, 2003
Posts: 2378
|
In reply to: Tele and AT turns are not the same, but contrary to popular beleif you can make decent alpine (i.e. oh s_ _ t ) turns in tele gear. This is all way beside the point. It sounds like you are interested in faster aproaches to climbing rather than enjoying skiing. Skiing either style in the backcountry takes practice, but is worth the trouble. Speeding up an aproach much easier, especially if you have skied even just a little. Having said that here is my suggestion, be it one of many. Find that pair of used silverettas mentioned previously. Use the boots you are climbing in and save money and weight. Get the cheapest, lightest, short fatties you can find used. Leave the bases all beat up and dry for grip then stash the skis when it gets to steep to stick. If you need skins to get up it, you are going to need skills to get back down. Another binding option for this kind of use is made by stubai. I've seen a link somewhere around RC but can't find it. Good Luck, and be safe.
Informative post. I'd recommend waxing with a blue Swix V30 wax as well. Acts as both a kick and a glide wax depending on conditions. Too much grip probably won't hurt if your headed up hill and they'll still glide better than a pair of skins.
|
|
|
|
|
talguy
Dec 6, 2005, 5:47 PM
Post #17 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 11, 2005
Posts: 26
|
Yea Dirty Hippie
I need more of the climing gear since i have all the stuff needed for camping. I know that ski gear can run me in the hole that much since i was looking at buying some skis 2 years ago. yea right now it is the expensive stuff that i need
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Dec 6, 2005, 5:56 PM
Post #18 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: Tele and AT turns are not the same, but contrary to popular beleif you can make decent alpine (i.e. oh s_ _ t ) turns in tele gear.
Yup! Tele is one additional turn. It shouldn't be a way of life. Having started on light tele where the genuflect is mandatory, as I migrated to heavy tele I found myself increasingly relying upon parallel turns in physical terrain. Personally I think doggedly sticking to the genuflect when a parallel turn is the better tool, is WAY missing the point.
A bottom line not cited in this thread... AT ourperforms tele on the steeps. Period, it isn't even a contest. It's physically easier too. A lot easier.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
talguy
Dec 6, 2005, 9:08 PM
Post #19 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 11, 2005
Posts: 26
|
Yea i can see now that if i did get a pair of bindings that AT is the way to go for just skiing and approach, since it's like XC for the approach and then turns into a downhill ski when heading back.
|
|
|
|
|
pico23
Dec 7, 2005, 3:08 AM
Post #20 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 14, 2003
Posts: 2378
|
In reply to: In reply to: Tele and AT turns are not the same, but contrary to popular beleif you can make decent alpine (i.e. oh s_ _ t ) turns in tele gear. A bottom line not cited in this thread... AT ourperforms tele on the steeps. Period, it isn't even a contest. It's physically easier too. A lot easier. DMT
I can't disagree with this because I'm simply not good enough skiier yet. And we've all seen this debated countless times anyway (dating back to the beginnings of nordic and alpine all the way to 2005 and beyond). However, it seems to me that you tele skills probably weren't as good as they could have been seeing as how most of us have seen tele skiers ski the same lines as alpine skiers. A good tele skier should be able to integrate more than one approach. And tele gives you all the tools of alpine plus the tele turn. Whereas apline just gives you alpine.
Even if you concede AT does to any margin outperfom tele on the steeps then you'd also have to concede that tele does a better job getting you to the steeps.
Honestly, I don't think you can go wrong either way. No matter what, neither system as currently setup is going to be good for both approaches and technical climbing. You'll at the very minimum need two sets of equipment one for real skiing and one for approaches.
|
|
|
|
|
pico23
Dec 7, 2005, 4:31 AM
Post #21 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 14, 2003
Posts: 2378
|
In reply to: since it's like XC for the approach and then turns into a downhill ski when heading back.
But AT isn't anywhere near as fluid as XC. It's fine for climbing the steeps but if you have any distance of flat or rolling terrain to cover just isn't fluid.
|
|
|
|
|
chrtur
Dec 7, 2005, 9:34 AM
Post #22 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 384
|
Hi all of you!
According to me you should decide what you mean when talking about the different types such as Telemark, XC, AT steups. It seems that some people get a little confused. :wink:
Telemark with alpine skies and plastic boots
This setup I use for having a good downhill performce, thus mostly skiing and not very well working for long approaches that are very flat. However for approaching a summit with the goal to ski down it works well, but the basic setup is far behind a usually AT in speed and technique. I have modified the basic steup with an adapter to have no tension at all from the cabels like the AT.
Telemark with XC type of skies and lower plastic boots or even leather boots
This is the more original steup which is used in the Scandinavian countries for long approaches or even more when going on skitouring in the mountains for several days. Thus you carry everything with you on the back or with a sled. This is a very efficient way of covering a lot of terrain in short time and beeing fairly flat. However the downhill performance is less than the more modern setup above, but in nice snow conditions it can be very fun I can promise you.
AT steup with alpine skies and plastic boots or Randonee
Similar to the first telemarksetup for approaches, working best for constant steep approaches and also the best downhill performance. As a telemarker to keep up with people on AT when going down it takes a lof from you. Meaning it requires much more from you in power, technique, etc.
- Christian
|
|
|
|
|
eastface87
Dec 12, 2005, 3:37 PM
Post #23 of 23
(4371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 12, 2005
Posts: 7
|
Lot of good things have been stated. To your original question of approaching a mountain on skis it seems to me that your choice of gear will be largely a function of what activities you want to do, your skills, the distance and the terrain. Mixing and matching based upon these elements will yield efficient results.
For example, if you wanted to ski in 5 - 6 miles and ice climb and the terrain was a packed railroad bed then I might ski in on skate skis or on lighter touring gear and carry my ice boots. In this case choosing very efficient gear for each activity. On the other hand if you were going up a lower angled snowfield or glacier for a few hours to then alpine climb, hike or ice climb I would probably choose an AT set and use my mountaineering boots as has been described in earlier posts. Here you will have somewhat ineffecient gear for each activity but gain overall efficiency and weight/space saving.
If the uphill ski tour involved technical downhill skiiing and easy to moderate climbing then I might opt for AT boots. It is possible to scramble, rock climb and ice climb (practice your foot swing at home first) in AT boots. Choose a softer AT boot for this.
And finally, if it's snow approaches and steep descents then stiffen the AT boot up.
All said, it comes down to your ski and mountain skills. Some people climb 5.12 in mountain boots and others ski steeps on skinny edgeless skis and soft boots! You'll have fun out there either way.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
