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angry
Dec 15, 2005, 3:49 PM
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I am beginning to hate knots.
Well, not the rope kind, the muscle kind. Muscle Spasms, Knots, or just fucking sore, I'm not sure but they suck. They are all in my back somewhere or another.
The first one, which bothers me intermittently for about 4 months a year is on my right side just below my scapula. It hurts to climb on until I loosen it up, then it's OK. It's all the non-climbing time that it's so sore. It's a sharp pain. It makes turning around a challenge. It also makes taking deep breaths painful. This one is not currently bothering me.
The second is on my left side halfway up my back and near the outside of my ribcage. It doesn't hurt to breathe, it just hurts to move. It's been with me for a couple weeks.
There's a third one. In my lower back, it's actually not a knot, I think it's a strain. It's basically at the junction of where the ass becomes the low back. Sharp pain and if I move wrong, I'll nearly fall. Then the next second I can climb 5.12. It hurts but doesn't seem to be a problem. Lately I've been doing exercises to strengthen my low back and it seems to have gone away, it's only been a few days, I'm unsure if it's permanently fixed.
None of these are stopping me from climbing, mostly, it's all the non-climbing time that they hurt. The rib one is taking sleep from me currently.
Before you start spraying common advice, let me give you some background.
Overweight - I'm 135lbs at 4% body fat.
Too Weak - Possible but I spend 2-4 days a week climbing, much of that time is spent on 5.12 or harder routes. I'm not a muscle head but don't think I'm weak
inadequate core strengthAgain, it's possible and I'm working on more core strength (not just abs). I climb wide, and it's never my abs that give out.
malnourished - unlikely, I know nutrition very well and eat quite healthy and complete.
overtrained I've put in harder and more volume when I was a swimmer, or triathlete, or cyclist. I don't feel anywhere near overtrained, it's possible I guess but I doubt it.
inflexible I'm not inflexible, but I can't fit into a suitcase. I think I'm slightly more than average though.
And finally, the money is not there for a daily massage, so please, give me some other ideas.
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overlord
Dec 15, 2005, 3:57 PM
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Registered: Mar 25, 2002
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could be youre dehydrated. at least that would go with the spasms.
also consider paying more attention to warming up and cooling down.
youre definitely not overweight, and if you climb 2-4days per week you shouldnt be overtrained.
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angry
Dec 15, 2005, 4:06 PM
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In reply to: could be youre dehydrated. at least that would go with the spasms. also consider paying more attention to warming up and cooling down. youre definitely not overweight, and if you climb 2-4days per week you shouldnt be overtrained.
Good call!!
I just don't pay attention to drinking as much now that I'm not racing.
I generally finish my day with a really hard route.
I'll try both.
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overlord
Dec 15, 2005, 4:13 PM
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its kinda hard to pay attention to drinking when climbing, at least for me, because i just dont get the feeling that im really loosing any liquids and moreove i just want to jump onto the next climb as soon as possible. i always know when i wasnt drinking enough because i get cramps when i climb. and you definitely should finish on something easy.
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climbinhigh18
Dec 15, 2005, 4:58 PM
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Two words for you my friend, Hans Kraus.
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bluenose
Dec 16, 2005, 12:07 AM
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Water, as mentioned.
You may have a rib out. Chiropractic or maybe massage can pop it back in place.
If you are actually at 4% bodyfat you are way too low to stay at that percentage. That in itself can cause problems. Unless you are going to compete at bodybuilding, and then only for the show, you will want to add some fat.
Add some calcium to your diet. Best with food sources but a good suppliment can help too. The muscles need calcium as do bones for proper functioning.
Jeff.
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climbinginchico
Dec 16, 2005, 9:25 AM
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Make sure you hydrate, and get enough calcium and potassium in your diet. I agree with perhaps going to see a chiropractor and getting a massage.
I also had amazing luck with Bowen Therapy (http://www.bowtech.com/welcome.do). Did wonders for my entire body. I used it for track (legs mostly) but after my first treatment my shoulder popped into place- doctors had told me to basically deal with it being slightly malaligned unless I wanted surgery, due to torn rotator cuffs.
I also had severe cramping under my right scapula, and this went away (and has stayed away for 2 years) after my second treatment. It's amazing, and doesn't really seem like it's doing a whole lot until later.
Good luck. Feel free to PM me if you want any more info.
Oh, and 4% isn't really dangerously low. I'm about 145 lb and right at 2.7% fat (just had it measured last week in a BodPod). I'm healthy and that's not even the lowest it's ever been. And believe me I try to add weight. It's impossible for me without stopping working out, which is out of the question.
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oibrownskin
Dec 16, 2005, 6:03 PM
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The soreness that you speak of that is in the ribcage area could be your intercostal muscles (or a rib like the other person said). When you breathe your intercostal muscles (the muscles that connect the ribs together and to the rest of the thoracic cage (cavity) have to contract and relax. When you inhale a deep breathe they get stretched and must relax. They could be inflexible (and yes there are ways to stretch these muscles) or just plain tired and sore.
The pain in your lower back could be from a misalignment in your hips. Usually this is the cause of sciatic nerve pain. It is more often than not caused by muscle imbalance. I am a distance runner, and we runners experience this when we run on the same side of the street (since streets slope on the edges, hence one leg has to fall farther than the other) too often. This causes the muscles of the affected side around the hip and low back to become tight and protective of the gigantic joint in your hip. It can cause one leg to be slightly shorter due to muscle tightness. another leading cause of this problem is from prolonged sitting, like at an office job or a driving job. Avoid sitting for long periods of time anywhere.
You need to stretch more, but specific long relaxing stretches. NEVER stretch to the point of pain, only tension. I had the same low back problem. hard to describe stretching techniques on the net without visual aids, but I will try.
for low-back. sit on your butt on the floor with legs out toes up. Lean forward and touch your toes. Look to see if one foot is SLIGHTLY shorter than the other. If the right is, lay down on your back and bend your knee at 90 degree. bring knee up to chest, then with leg bent, move knee across body to the left side of your body pulling with your left hand. try to keep your back flat (it will naturally come off on the right side like you are rolling over in bed). Use your core to pull your torso to the right, while with your left hand pulling your knee to the left. Your low back might pop, and that is OK and not detrimental. Hold the stretch for 15 seconds. Go touch your toes again, and do same stretch with the left side. After this, do numerous stretches that stretch your butt (ie. Hollywood's). Buy a stretching book they have wonderful illustrations.
I have been taking Yoga for 5 years and have learned many stretches to expand the ribcage.
Also like everyone else here as pointed out, muscles spasms (cramps) occur for three reasons and three reasons ONLY:
1) not enough water
2) electrolyte imbalance (potassium, sodium, etc)
3) not enough oxygen getting to muscle (muscle inefficiency, strength conditioning etc).
I hope this was helpful. and make sure you get enough FAT in your diet. people think fat is bad. storing too much is bad, eating too much is bad, but cutting too much OUT IS BAD!!! without fat your skin would be very dry. our cells or phospoLIPID bi-layers. every cell of your body NEEDS fat. balance is the key to a healthy diet, don't forget the fat, the only part of your body that doesn't use fat for energy is your brain, don't make your brain compete with your body for sugar energy when fat is gone, your brain will always win, or make it so that NO one wins.
that was long, if you have more questions PM me or email me.
I would be more than happy to take some pictures of good stretches and show you the illustrations.
thanks, hope I helped and didn't bore.
Caesar
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welsford
Dec 16, 2005, 6:27 PM
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Angry,
I have been reading this forum for a long time and never decided to post for many reasons. However, your post made me feel obliged to respond out of pity for you, as I have had the exact same symptoms for a long time and have found a reasonable way to deal with them.
I like the way you listed the stats about yourself, as a way of stopping the general critics on this forum from making stupid and or derogatory suggestions towards you, prior to completing your post. So for the sake of you taking my advice (or not) here is my background (or lack there of).
I have no medical training, therefore all my knowledge regarding this issue is from being injured and spending my time experimenting with advice given from massage therapists, athletic therapists, doctors and physios, with varying degrees of success.
I too have about the same body size and %fat as yourself, train 5-6 days a week and am a member of a national team.
I am not 100% sure about all three of your listed problems, since the details of "exactly" where the pain is and what it feels like, cannot be seen or expressed over this forum. However, a few things you said which ring true for both your case and mine (explained below), which is my reason for posting. Next you will find my humble assessment based on my own experience.
You say you have three problem areas: low back/ass, "right side just below my scapula", "left side halfway up my back and near the outside of my ribcage". I also understand you don't have money for massage, unfortunately what I will suggest will include this, but read it anyway. Without giving you the story about how many times it took me going to various professionals to determine the following results, I will simple post what the outcome was for me.
First you probably want to see a good sports massage therapist about your two upper/middle back problems. For me, due to all my training being climbing related, all my "pulling" muscles are much stronger than my "pushing". Therefore, typically my traps, lats and rhomboids are very tight, knotted, pulling under, and on my scapula causing some of the same pain in the same places you are describing. So, by really massaging these areas (trigger point and deep tissue stripping) I gained some relief from the symptoms. BUT, I still found that they came back quickly and never really fully went away, which the massage therapist said meant I need to come more often (expensive). After seeing a athletic therapist who was extremely experienced (and whom I have now been working with for close to 3 years) it was discovered I had various displaced ribs (again from so much "pulling" causing strength imbalances in the muscles between and over top of my ribs). These ribs, depending which one was displaced at the time, felt like a painful lump well under my scapula, which everyone thought was knots in my rhomboids (which it partially was, but the underlying problem was the ribs). After just one session with the athletic therapist and the treatments he performed (releasing the displaced ribs) I felt 100 times better, but the problem reoccurred once I resumed training. However, with the appropriate stretches and a few more treatments (brief "tuneups") combined with diligent stretching and regular (but not frequent) massage (to keep the rhomboids traps and back in general loose) I haven't had any further problems. The biggest challenge was getting it under control while continually training, but once under control, it really has never been an issue since. I truly believe that only a really good professional (in my case an athletic therapist) can understand and fix these chronic problems. Too many doctors say, just stop doing the exercise, rest and start slowly. This is not sufficient if you take what you do seriously, it is just their safe answer cause they don't really understand why the problem occurs.
So to conclude part one, for me it was extremely tight muscles and their imbalance causing some of the problems, but also their effect on my ribs ( causing displacement) that caused most of my pain. Fix: After finding the cause and getting the appropriate initial treatment and a stretching program I did the following - regular self stretching and self massage, combined with regular, but infrequent professional massage (by someone who is good, not all are equal ask around).
Low back/ass: This could be so many things, but one thing you said tipped me off. You have a strong core already and do core training. Me too, allot. By any chance does the core training you do have anything to do with hanging and doing leg raises, bent or straight leg, or do you climb a lot of steep (30+ deg) routes. If so, as is my case, I have a suggestion.
The "Core" is made up of 29 different muscles, (check out a physiology text its important to see what I mean), not just abs. These muscles as you know are really important for climbing steep anything. As such, we train them in tons of ways. The problem is, depending how you do this you can really cause problems to your lower back. I was doing a tons of leg raises, free hanging from a hang board, as well as climbing steep routes all the time. My abs would burn and were getting really strong (I thought). What I didn't realize was that while doing the hanging leg raises and steep climbing I was targeting my lower back and certain core muscles not primarily my abs; the abs are just where I physically felt the burn. After a few months of just this, I had sharp pains in certain positions and constant pain during long drives in my lower back/ass (ie. above and below the iliac crest, spelling?). Again my athletic therapist after a detailed consult figured out that the leg lifts (free hanging) were what was was causing all the trouble, because that exercises (again I did way to many) was heavily targeting certain core muscles and part of my lower back, causing them to over tighten across and to my iliac crest and low back. The reason why these straight leg, free hanging lifts do this, can be demonstrated, as it was to me in the following way. Sitting on the edge of a table with your feet off the ground, straighten your back out (sit up very straight) and press your chest outwards as of taking a deep breath. Now put a hand on behind your back with the back of your hand on the lower part of your back (make sure keep back straight and chest out). Slowly, very slowly, straighten out one knee and lift that leg until you feel even the slightest movement in your back. You will likely find that your back starts to move slightly with your knee at only about 45-60 deg straight. That means that after that point, the rest of the range of motion of the leg lift is being carried out by your core and primarily the low back, not your abs. This puts a ton of stress in those locations, causing pain later as it tightens up after exercise and it is also likely why it hurts very bad during only some movements (as you twist or bend) and use the little muscles that were stressed rather than the larger muscles used to simply stand or sit.
So to fix this, the therapist did some deep excruciating prodding to see exactly which internal muscles were over tight (some were under my abs, some in my glutes, one at the tip of my tail bone between my butt cheeks and others in my low back) then he put me in very specific position holding me there for a long time to get the muscles to release, he also gave me funny stretches I had not seen before to do at home. I am now completely pain free after a few (approx 5-6) treatments. Now the question is how do I work my core. Well, I have since began an amazing core routine based on gymnastics similar to ones on dragondoor.com by coach sommers, which includes progressive lever training, planches and bodyweight exercises. This seems to work a hundred times better than anything I have done in the past, it helps me keep balanced muscles and is a great break from climbing. I do it 2-3 times a week and feel great and am way stronger.
Anyway, now I have written way to much probably not very clearly, with tons of spelling mistakes leaving myself open to criticism from all the critical people on this site. But I truly hope something in this drivel helps you out. I am certain you will need to find a good professional to at least help you target the exact problem areas initially, then you likely can do the rest on your own. My advice is find someone sports related, maybe put a post here and disclose the area you live in and ask for the climbers to recommend someone with specific climbing injury experience in your area. It may help you find the right person quicker. If it helps I found the athletic therapist for free though a local university. Good luck and don't give up, even if I am all wrong, you can figure out how to fix any problem (and still train effectively) by getting the correct advice.
Sincerely,
John Bowles
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majid_sabet
Dec 16, 2005, 8:35 PM
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Registered: Dec 13, 2002
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You got an awesome resume but do you know the difference between human body and Diesel Engine?
One works non-stop and the other must rest once in awhile.
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styndall
Dec 16, 2005, 9:24 PM
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In reply to: There's a third one. In my lower back, it's actually not a knot, I think it's a strain. It's basically at the junction of where the ass becomes the low back. Sharp pain and if I move wrong, I'll nearly fall. Then the next second I can climb 5.12. It hurts but doesn't seem to be a problem. Lately I've been doing exercises to strengthen my low back and it seems to have gone away, it's only been a few days, I'm unsure if it's permanently fixed.
I get this exact pain from time to time. I can never tell when it'll hit: I've done it bouldering, I've done it top-roping in the gym, and I've done it on my road bike standing up while pressing up a hill. It lasts for a good long time, too, sometimes as long as a month.
I'm built basically like you, it sounds like, so maybe it's a tall, skinny dude problem?
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