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baigot
Dec 21, 2005, 12:33 PM
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Iīve been noticed in photo section thereīs so many of the climbing community who love to bolt new routes. I mean no the entire pitch but the anchors.
Iīm not a hard climber but i setted severals trads, and even alpine routes, average dificulty, where every belay station i made it i did with natural protection (at least i used removable pitons).
This is not an argument to point my boldness, on contrary, but i think the bolting process is a pain in the ass and you take many time to protect a route and not thinking that "speed=security", not to mention the excess of equipment you have to carry.
With natural pro, you save time, and increase speed, not to mention that is cleaner leaving the rock in natural conditions.
I know is a matter of choice but this is a question i want to do? WHY?
by the way itīs NOT a ethics question...
cheers,
Vicente
Argentina.
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gordo
Dec 21, 2005, 1:23 PM
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In reply to: by the way itīs NOT a ethics question...
My answer would be that it has more to do with future assents. It may be slower for your FA and thus a safety factor (though I'd guess very little safety factor if it's a decent belay) But for future sends it's certainly easier/faster to set the belay up on bolts that are in place.
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alibaba
Dec 21, 2005, 2:11 PM
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I'd recommend bolts only if you can't fit an adequate amount of mobile pro.
As to the question of speed: I don't mind spending 5 minutes on rigging a belay. God invented time but he didn't say anything about hurrying up
:D
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vegastradguy
Dec 21, 2005, 4:00 PM
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i know that some FA teams really do want their routes to be clean, well protected, and have the belay stances well bolted. in my home area at Red Rock, the Uriostes followed this rule of thumb on many of their routes, and as a result, about 80% of all the mega classic moderate routes here were done by at least one of them.
as for myself, of the dozen or so semi-large Grade III routes i've been lucky enough to FA, i have yet to place a bolt (although there were a few spots here and there that made me consider placing one...) and i hope to continue that trend for as long as possible.
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sspssp
Dec 21, 2005, 7:19 PM
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In reply to: Iīm not a hard climber but i setted severals trads, and even alpine routes, average dificulty, where every belay station i made it i did with natural protection (at least i used removable pitons). With natural pro, you save time, and increase speed, not to mention that is cleaner leaving the rock in natural conditions.
If you think that placing and removing pitons leave the rock in the natural condition, you need to do any trade route on El Cap.
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dingus
Dec 21, 2005, 7:30 PM
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Some reasons bolted belay anchors may be appropriate:
1. The natural options aren't solid enough or the leader doesn't have any pro to fit.
2. You plan to rap the route, maybe even repeatedly.
3. Its a trad route in an area where bolted rap and belay stations are the norm.
Note I said 'reasons' not 'requirements.'
DMT
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d1ll1gaf
Dec 21, 2005, 7:54 PM
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While moving faster can often be the safer option, taking the time to bolt the belays provides the FA party (and all subsequent parties) with the ability to quickly and safely retreat off of a route
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qwert
Dec 21, 2005, 7:55 PM
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I dont want to say that every route "has" to be bolted or something, but in many cases a bolted belay can add safety and speed, for the people doing the route as '"consumers".
Its just faster and easier, to just clip a good bolt and have a belay, instead of having to search a while until you hardly find five pieces that you trust a bit more then bodyweight ...
with this said, i do in no way recommend to rebolt routes that dont have bolted belays. its the joice of the first ascensionist, wether to bolt or not.
I did say consumers for a reason. many of the routes equipped in such a way, are the popular routes, not your die hard manly horrorshow, so the firs ascenionist might want his route (and so maybe his name) to become "famous", and therefore it is a reasonable thing to equip the route in such a way that many people are able to do it.
This practice has many benefits, not just the added speed mentioned above. also on apopular route, it will become easier for manyy parties to share belays. Ever arrived on an all natural belay, with all the good placements already occupied? If you are lucky, you can move on or back a ffew meters to another good spot, but mostly belay stances are the best/the only good option in that spot, and it will be pretty hard to find another one.
On the other hand there are of course risks with this method. If the placed material looks fine, but it isnt, siuch a belay can become pretty dangerous. If people "learn" to climb on such routes, and expect every route to be so, it will be very hard for them if one nice day a route isnt like that (just being sarcastic, that would be pilot error) and they have to build a belay with pro...
A route bolted that way is very likely to become very popular and well travelled, so you get many people, noise, trash, n00bs, greasy rock and comments like "why did that weirdo just bolt the belays?" and so on.
and of course its an ethics issue, and those are nasty, especially here on rc.com :twisted:
so to sum it all up: (only valid for the lower to medium grades)
if you have a beatifull route with good moves, and you
a) want to share its beaty with many people, want to be a nice guy, and enable thos with less experience than oyu to also have a great day, bolt the belays.
b) want to keep it that way, and want the people have to "earn" it, and dont want the crag to become "commercialiced", dont bolt the belays.
I think theres nothing wrong with both methods, as long as you dont exaggerate it.
qwert
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baigot
Dec 22, 2005, 12:11 AM
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Wow!!!
To this point, you guys ilustrated me a lot about rules of EEUU climbing. Here in Argentina, crags rules are a little anarquist for my taste, just for be a trad climber (or clean aid, or at least, cleaner i can). In some places bolts are placed everywhere without taking any kind of consideration about the way the FA was made or the "rules" of the crag.
Me? I prefer pitons instead of bolts. Pitons are very safe (this inclued a good placement) just for, i donīt know, lets call history or tradition...
Personnaly, i donīt like the feeling of plenty of security (i mean bolts), because it slow me down and blow my focus-on-climbing away, That could be understood as a stupid argument but is what i think.
Good answers from everyone...good thread
Vicente.
Argentina
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piton
Dec 22, 2005, 2:11 PM
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hey Vicente
great post! imo bolts suck. you have no idea who put the bolts in how deep the bolts go, if the bolts are glue in bolts or expansion. if the person putting in the bolts cleaned out the whole before installing the bolts.
i like to work my gear in so i have direct feed back on my placements.
i also agree that pitons are very safe if placed correctly. but pitons can also do a lot of damage to the rock ex. taking out angles. on the other hand knifeblades or bugaboos will not do much damage. but the knifblades and bugs scare me on upside down placements
climb hard be safe
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sspssp
Dec 22, 2005, 7:07 PM
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If there is a natural anchor available, you can use it even if somebody has also bolted the anchor (or at least back the bolts up). However, if the only option is bolts or pins, I would rather see bolts. No, you don't know how good a job the bolt placer did, but if a pin is left in place, you don't know how good it is either (and pins left in place "go bad" much quicker on average than bolts). On the other hand, if every party places and removes pins, it tears the rock up quickly (although if it is done thoughtfully, it will eventually leave a pin scar that will take natural gear).
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brutusofwyde
Dec 25, 2005, 8:30 AM
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In reply to: Me? I prefer pitons instead of bolts. Pitons are very safe (this inclued a good placement) just for, i donīt know, lets call history or tradition...
pitons are in no way safe unless you are carrying a hammer.
If you think otherwise, you're fooling yourself.
Brutus
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ihategrigris
Dec 25, 2005, 7:46 PM
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Why don't you carry a chopping kit with you? That way, not only will you bring and ascend the route in a more traditional style, you'll also get a couple of hangers to use for your sport climbing projects... pretty sweet eh?
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baigot
Dec 27, 2005, 10:26 AM
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i donīt chop any bolt at all. If thereīs a bolt in the route? i leave there...this is my rule. I just feel sorry for the climber who put it there...
Iīm against choppers. Even if i feel any bolt is in bad conditions, i simply donīt use it.
cheers
Vicente.
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ajkclay
Jan 3, 2006, 6:31 AM
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Aussie take on things:
Bolting a belay on a trad route where there's a crack = getting your arse kicked if anyone sees/hears you regardless of how safe/quick/easy to rap off in case of emergency it will make things + a very real chance of finding chopped bolts on your next visit.
If there's adequate natural pro, no bolting. If there's not, consult locals extensively first, if all clear given then bolt.
Just my 2c :D
Adam
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iamcolinslack
Jan 3, 2006, 2:20 PM
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^^ well said.
We have to remember that the rocks we have now are the only ones we will ever have. Bolting anchors is no problem to me IF there is no chance for natural pro. This is also the reason I'm not a big fan of sport climbing. Bolting the shit out of walls is just pointless. Making bolts here and there for safety reasons is fine too. Its routes that are nothing but bolts that disgust me. Clean AID and trad are the only paths I will ever walk. We each as climbers have a duty to keep what we have for as long as we have.
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dingus
Jan 3, 2006, 3:20 PM
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In reply to: Its routes that are nothing but bolts that disgust me.
Why? Seems an arbitrary distinction to me. Just curious.
DMT
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mother_sheep
Jan 3, 2006, 3:45 PM
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Seeing bolted anchors on alpine routes eases my mind a bit after my partner and I almost ate it because of our crappy rap station. But at the same time, I also feel that it takes away from the commitment factor and that bothers me. Then again, if you don't see bolts on an alpine route, think about what else you do see. . .webbing all over the place (as people don't always take the same line when bailing or descending. It's left everywhere!), pitons, etc. . .Maybe a few bolts would result in less clutter up there on the more common routes. I have mixed feelings about it.
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andy_reagan
Jan 3, 2006, 3:50 PM
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Not to mention bolted rap stations are safer and easier to use, and if placed correctly likely will only ever be seen by climbers.
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brutusofwyde
Jan 3, 2006, 3:52 PM
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In reply to: ^^ well said. Clean AID and trad are the only paths I will ever walk. We each as climbers have a duty to keep what we have for as long as we have.
Clean aid with fixed gear (i.e. HAFWEN) or clean aid??
Huge difference.
Best draw the lines of your stylistic and ethical boundaries clearly, lest the proverbial slippery slope lands you in H#ll.
:roll:
Brutus
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iamcolinslack
Jan 3, 2006, 4:09 PM
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Just any aid that requires no rock marring, ie. clean pro, and hooks, no pins and drills.
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baigot
Jan 3, 2006, 5:11 PM
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I follow this simple quote from Argentinian climber Jose Luis Fonrouge (among other BOLD ascents he did the second absolute ascent of Mount Fitz Roy, by a new route, pure alpine style in 3 days of continous climbing in 1965):
"Fixed Lines style make the climber a burgoise, because you feel safe and you can return to the base camp in any moment for any reason and you donīt have the preassure of complete the ascent. If we had faced Cerro Torre in alpine style, we probably could make it"
This quote is from his Book, while he wrote about Cerro Torre the ī68 Argentinian-British attempt to Cerro Torre. Itīs a little extreme but has some interesting points to take note on bolting/fixed gear...
Some times this way to set a route give the "impression" of security...but takes away the adventure or the meaning of the climb.
or not?
Iīm not trying to make a debate...itīs an idea...
Happy New Year Folks!!!!
Vicente
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dingus
Jan 3, 2006, 5:26 PM
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In reply to: Some times this way to set a route give the "impression" of security...but takes away the adventure or the meaning of the climb. or not?
Happy new year Vincinte.
My reaction to your thoughts: if on a first ascent, the adventure is what ever the team makes of it. Bolts only add to or detract from that adventure if the team deems it so. The adventure is in their heads.
Subsequent parties can well go pound sand if they don't like the FA bolts detracting from THEIR adventure. Or better yet, go establish new routes in styles more keeping with their stern ways.
Some of the most adamant "I would never" crowd have in fact never put principle to practice when it comes to this subject. Sure is easy to have a no-bolt ethic when you have never been in position to need them...
DMT
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vegastradguy
Jan 3, 2006, 6:55 PM
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In reply to: Just any aid that requires no rock marring, ie. clean pro, and hooks, no pins and drills.
what about going up on a route that is rated C3F/A3?
Would you even chance getting up there and finding out that a head is blown or a fixed pin/rivit/bolt is missing and you need to replace it?
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iamcolinslack
Jan 3, 2006, 8:09 PM
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im mostly pertaining to C0, C1 stuff where I wouldnt have to worry about anything big.
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