I just don't get the use of a middle marker of which I never know if it still marks the middle... :wink:

- Daniel

I've given this subject a lot of thought over the years, and I've come to the conclusion that it really does not matter if a Sharpie, or whatever, weakens the rope. The center is the least critical part of the rope, and is never put under any major stress. Since we are marking the sheath only, even if this were to weaken the sheath to zero percent of it's original strength we still have the entire core at full strength...which is plenty strong enough. Now if we were near the ends of the rope we would have an argument. I personally use a Sharpie. Oh, and have you ever heard of a rope breaking where it was marked with anything?

I've given this subject a lot of thought over the years, and I've come to the conclusion that it really does not matter if a Sharpie, or whatever, weakens the rope. The center is the least critical part of the rope, and is never put under any major stress. Since we are marking the sheath only, even if this were to weaken the sheath to zero percent of it's original strength we still have the entire core at full strength...which is plenty strong enough. Now if we were near the ends of the rope we would have an argument. I personally use a Sharpie. Oh, and have you ever heard of a rope breaking where it was marked with anything?

Just trying to make the point that even at the ludicrous extreme hypothetical of the rope being reduced to 70% of it's original strength at the center, the rope will still be plenty strong for the low forces that will ever impact the rope here. I also think you brought up another good point; ever hear of a rope sheath tear at the center where marked with a Sharpie? Ever even see any extra sheath wear here?

Of course you are correct. The safety nazis around here spew all the time over this nonsense so you're just catching their knee-jerk reaction. The reality is Sharpie's are absoulutely fine for marking ropes.

That marking a climbing rope with a felt pen can damage it was first reported in 1998. The German Alpine Cub tested a Sharpie felt pen (made in USA and sold in Germany), which apparently was advertised for use on climbing ropes (to mark the middle of the rope, for instance). In the tests the ropes were marked and the marked area was placed at the orifice plate in the standard UIAA drop test. Five unmarked samples held 10 - 12 falls, while three marked samples held 6 - 8 falls. This information was published at that time in the Gazette of The Alpine Club of Canada as well as in The American Alpine News.

From: hi - view profile
Date: Thurs, Apr 18 2002 12:33 am
Email: "hi"
Groups: rec.climbing
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>There is no study that will confirm
> this and if there is, it is only "One" study out of about ten that
>disproves
> it, as a false conclusion...


That marking a climbing rope with a felt pen can damage it was first
reported in 1998. The German Alpine Cub tested a Sharpie felt pen
(made in USA and sold in Germany), which apparently was advertised for
use on climbing ropes (to mark the middle of the rope, for instance).
In the tests the ropes were marked and the marked area was placed at
the orifice plate in the standard UIAA drop test. Five unmarked
samples held 10 - 12 falls, while three marked samples held 6 - 8
falls. This information was published at that time in the Gazette of
The Alpine Club of Canada as well as in The American Alpine News.

Last year two rope manufacturers (Lanex and Mammut) and the German
Alpine Club visited this problem again. Various samples of non-dry and
superdry rope were tested using a variety of felt pens (Sharpie was
not among them). Testing was done seven to 30 days after application.
Reduction varied from zero to 50 % in the number of drops held.
Superdry ropes generally had less capacity reduction than non-dry,
possibly because the saturation was less. However, one particular rope
sample had an insignificant increase in capacity for the non-dry rope,
but a 35 % reduction for the superdry. This rope, by the way, was the
only one, which did not have a reduction in capacity for both the
non-dry and superdry sample.


Middle markings, which come with a new rope and were applied by the
manufacturer, are safe. Do rope manufacturers sell trustworthy
markers? Mammut tested the "Rope Marker", a pen sold by Beal. The
reduction was 50 % for the non-dry and 17 % for the superdry rope.
Mammut tested five days and four weeks after application. The capacity
reduction was more for tests done four weeks after application.


Sanford, the manufacturer of the Sharpie pens, will apparently not
guarantee a consistent product. The ingredients of the pen may vary.
There is no "standard" formula for the chemicals that are contained in
the markers. The company has also stated that "Sanford will not
endorse or in any way recommend use of these markers for rope climbing
(sic), and will not accept liabilities, which may arise from its use."


The recommendation: do not mark your rope with any kind of felt pen.
Water-soluble acrylic paints are apparently safe. No information is
available how long they stay on.


The bottom line: (for a rope, which would be safe under normal
circumstances) there is a risk when the marked area is loaded by a
fall over an edge. Who buys lottery tickets


------------------------


Published Notes from the Plenary Session of the UIAA Safety Commission
1998:


4. Do not use magic markers of any kind to mark the rope. An American
product specifically sold for marking the middle of ropes reduces the
strength of the rope (only at the point of marking, when loaded over
the test edge) by as much as 50%.


---------------------------


Published Notes from the Plenary Session of the UIAA Safety Commission
2001:


8. New work has again confirmed that ropes should not be marked
(middle) with any kind of felt pens. The ropes will be damaged.


----------------------------


UIAA Safety Commission
Notification concerning Rope Marking issued: April 2002


Tests done by the UIAA Safety Commission and by some rope
manufacturers have shown that rope marking with liquids such as those
provided by felt-tipped pens can be dangerous, even with those
markers, sold specifically for marking ropes. The test results showed
a decrease up to approximately 50% of the rope strength, more
correctly: of the energy absorption capacity of the rope (expressed by
the number of falls in the standard test method in accordance with the
European Standard EN 892).


Therefore the UIAA Safety Commission warns against marking a rope with
any substance that has not been specifically approved by the rope
manufacturer of that rope. (**Added note: Beal sells a rope marker
that presumably they recommend for their ropes but it was found to
reduce strength up to 50% which is the worst result for any marker
tested.)


It is not possible for the UIAA Safety Commission to test all markers
that are commercially available and can be used for marking ropes.
Furthermore it would be impossible for the UIAA Safety Commission to
keep such information up-to-date. In addition, the effect of any rope
marker seems to vary with the make of rope. Hence, all the UIAA Safety
Commission can do at the moment is to warn mountaineers and climbers.
The UIAA Safety Commission will carry out further research into this
problem to provide practical advice to climbers.


Pit Schubert, President
Neville McMillan, Vice President
Carlo Zanantoni, Technical Director
-------

Ok, I'll respond even though I feel is troll level 0.

papounet:

In response to your misplaced belief #2: I would certainly hope to never take a fall with more than half the rope out and no pro! Actually, it will never happen...by then I have in at least 10 pieces. When I take a fall under these circumstances, it is always a low force fall, and as you point out, much less still at the rope center. I completely agree that the rope sheath is important near the ends, just not at the center. And as has been pointed out elsewhere on this page, I am aware of numerous deaths related to climbers not knowing where the center of their rope was at a rappel...and none from Sharpie induced rope breakage. At the very least, consider this the lesser of two evils. BTW, I do buy bipattern ropes when available in the rope I want. Cheers!

I've given this subject a lot of thought over the years, and I've come to the conclusion that it really does not matter if a Sharpie, or whatever, weakens the rope. The center is the least critical part of the rope, and is never put under any major stress. Since we are marking the sheath only, even if this were to weaken the sheath to zero percent of it's original strength we still have the entire core at full strength...which is plenty strong enough. Now if we were near the ends of the rope we would have an argument. I personally use a Sharpie. Oh, and have you ever heard of a rope breaking where it was marked with anything?

Introducing knowledgeably a weak point in a rope is not a good idea in my book.