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tim
Dec 28, 2005, 7:47 PM
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In reply to: The more they get blasted on here the more they are going to put up their defenses. I am not defending their actions or their response but next time if you are really concerned about someone and their safety methods pm them.
This is a very good point. It is nearly impossible to persuade someone once you have placed them on the defensive. The point that seems to miss on the belayer is that it's kind of absurd, really, to go to the trouble of belaying on a perfectly modern rope, only to tempt fate unnecessarily by clipping in with a locker. There was no additional benefit provided here -- marginal, in terms of time saved; zero, in terms of convenience (what, are you going to swing leads halfway up?!?); and negative, in terms of the guy on lead actually acquiring worthwhile habits. If this wasn't a brainfart, the guy doing the talking simply refuses to think!
I wasn't going to post the above, mostly because I respect Bruce a lot and enjoy watching Bob troll everyone. But if you evaluate the situation objectively, there is no way to justify this. It was a mistake, plain and simple, and if fate had not smiled upon these guys (or if they hadn't been trolling -- still can't decide) it could have got real ugly, real fast.
At least "spanky" can acknowledge that his friends made a mistake. What seems to have been lost along the way is not that "clipping in with a biner is always bad" or "backclipping will always kill you" but rather that the guy on his first lead cannot reasonably be expected to understand the risks he is taking. The guy belaying and defending himself is irresponsible, for placing the leader in a situation where it's very unlikely that the leader understood the risks he was agreeing to.
Plenty of people seem to have learned to lead, successfully, on the family clothesline. (Greg Child makes a point of this) That doesn't mean that people who know better should encourage it, or do nothing to prevent it.
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laprade
Dec 28, 2005, 7:49 PM
Post #152 of 265
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In reply to: In reply to: I cannot believe that anyone would actually trust a single locking biner to tie in, ever, on lead! well, ok. you're entitled to your opinion. but just so we're clear: there are big, fat, monstrous locking 'beans on the market that, even when cross-loaded at the gate -- which is a scenario virtually impossible to effect in a leader fall -- still test out at thousands of lbs. sorry 'bout that.
And you can tell that this locker is bomb proof from that picture?
Can you also see a back-up knot? I sure can't.
Are you also insinuating that this guy knows the ropes as well as the Bird/Long/Westbay? (I guess the shorts be-lie certain points, but I bet even Largo has learned the errors of his early 80's ways.)
And this kid, on his first ever lead, knows the difference?
Don't you think it is better to learn the correct way to do things from the start, and then make an informed decision, rather than have a frat bro tell you, "here, clip into this and you will be fine???"
Please inform us when was the last time you tied into a lead rope directly through an un-backed-up knot through a locking carabiner?
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superbum
Dec 28, 2005, 7:52 PM
Post #153 of 265
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I usually just tie in using dental floss clove hitched around my johnson. "The leader must not fall" is my motto!
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j_ung
Dec 28, 2005, 7:54 PM
Post #154 of 265
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^^ :lol:
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clayman
Dec 28, 2005, 9:34 PM
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I haven't read this entire thread so maybe this has already been hashed out. But to me, that first draw doesn't look backed clipped. The rope runs over the gate (when the draw is not being pulled out like that in the photo), for it to be back clipped wouldn't it have to run behind the gate?
cl
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greenketch
Dec 28, 2005, 9:44 PM
Post #156 of 265
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clayman, that is somewhat correct. The draw does not appear back clipped as the rope is pulling against it. Look back at the first pic. Mid draw there is a twist visible in the webbing. that is caused by backclipping and then applying tension to the rope. It forces a twist but the biener is still oriented incorrect in relation to the rope.
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clayman
Dec 28, 2005, 9:51 PM
Post #157 of 265
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In reply to: clayman, that is somewhat correct. The draw does not appear back clipped as the rope is pulling against it. Look back at the first pic. Mid draw there is a twist visible in the webbing. that is caused by backclipping and then applying tension to the rope. It forces a twist but the biener is still oriented incorrect in relation to the rope.
Ah-ha. Got it, my mistake. thanks
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talons05
Dec 28, 2005, 9:59 PM
Post #158 of 265
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In reply to: I usually just tie in using dental floss clove hitched around my johnson. "The leader must not fall" is my motto!
:lol:
Well........
Of course!
Cheers,
A.W.
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dontmaytagme
Dec 28, 2005, 10:09 PM
Post #159 of 265
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In reply to: Gym rats in the great outdoors.
Oh, yeah.. Gym Rats have to learn somehow.. sometimes it involves varieties of [death]. You never know!
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hosh
Dec 28, 2005, 10:10 PM
Post #160 of 265
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Maybe this kid knows Chuck Norris
hosh.
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edge
Dec 28, 2005, 10:20 PM
Post #161 of 265
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I cannot believe that anyone would actually trust a single locking biner to tie in, ever, on lead! well, ok. you're entitled to your opinion. but just so we're clear: there are big, fat, monstrous locking 'beans on the market that, even when cross-loaded at the gate -- which is a scenario virtually impossible to effect in a leader fall -- still test out at thousands of lbs. sorry 'bout that. And you can tell that this locker is bomb proof from that picture? Can you also see a back-up knot? I sure can't. Are you also insinuating that this guy knows the ropes as well as the Bird/Long/Westbay? (I guess the shorts be-lie certain points, but I bet even Largo has learned the errors of his early 80's ways.) And this kid, on his first ever lead, knows the difference? Don't you think it is better to learn the correct way to do things from the start, and then make an informed decision, rather than have a frat bro tell you, "here, clip into this and you will be fine???" Please inform us when was the last time you tied into a lead rope directly through an un-backed-up knot through a locking carabiner?
Still waiting.
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azrockclimber
Dec 28, 2005, 10:24 PM
Post #162 of 265
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CURT,
hmm, well I have clipped into a single biner before and it was very effective. Once it was on lead. Specifically on braille book. I had very little chance of falling and we needed to really save time. However, that was my choice for the specific situations that I have been in. I would never even allude to it being okay on a thread / site where anyone could pick it up and use it to their detriment.
And if you meant that it was okay in certain situations you should have said which situations. You lose all hope of sounding intelligent by not saying what you actually mean.
And as for my intelligence you really don't compare my friend...trust me. Oh and have fun at your gay ass "I need to be intelligent" high IQ society's. haha...please..Learn a few real languages and get a high paying, serious job that requires your massive intellect. Then start winging around your juvenile insults. It'll at least be bit more on the level.
Also, your comments on whether or not I know which situations to use that effectively in are plain silly. Actually I think I wouldn't mind clipping you into one on an steep .13R. Lets cross load that single biner with a factor two fall !! ass...Is that the type of situation a single biner would be good in or was it another one that you failed to mention??
You advocated bad advice, you were wrong. Adults can admit when they are wrong. PM me when you grow up, just as an FYI as to when I can take your posts seriously.
Oh, and please spell check this for me...you are very good at it. Thanks
Wes
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bvb
Dec 28, 2005, 10:33 PM
Post #163 of 265
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hmmmmm.....seems like something struck a nerve with wittle wes. tsk, tsk. boy curt, he really burned you off, huh?
dorkn00b.
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reno
Dec 28, 2005, 10:34 PM
Post #164 of 265
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In reply to: I usually just tie in using dental floss clove hitched around my johnson. "The leader must not fall" is my motto!
Trophy post for the day.
:lol:
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g
Deleted
Dec 28, 2005, 11:17 PM
Post #165 of 265
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In reply to: Don't you think it is better to learn the correct way to do things from the start, and then make an informed decision, rather than have a frat bro tell you, "here, clip into this and you will be fine???" |
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climbsomething
Dec 28, 2005, 11:41 PM
Post #166 of 265
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In reply to: CURT... get a high paying, serious job that requires your massive intellect. Then start winging around your juvenile insults. It'll at least be bit more on the level. |
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shorty
Dec 29, 2005, 12:29 AM
Post #167 of 265
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In reply to: In reply to: CURT... get a high paying, serious job that requires your massive intellect. Then start winging around your juvenile insults. It'll at least be bit more on the level. Yeah Curt, ya french fry-slingin mouthbreather, super size that for me.
I'll bet the missus is so proud of him.
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curt
Dec 29, 2005, 1:46 AM
Post #168 of 265
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Registered: Aug 27, 2002
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In reply to: ...And as for my intelligence you really don't compare my friend...trust me. Oh and have fun at your gay ass "I need to be intelligent" high IQ society's. haha...please..Learn a few real languages and get a high paying, serious job that requires your massive intellect. Then start winging around your juvenile insults. It'll at least be bit more on the level...
Put up or shut up. Here's my bio--let's see yours.
Curt Shannon's professional background is rooted in both Silicon Valley and Wall Street. He has over twelve years experience in compound semiconductor research and development activities; primarily involving gallium arsenide related materials. At Perkin-Elmer, USC, and Aerojet Electrosystems, Mr. Shannon was responsible for efforts to improve the quality of III-V epitaxial layers deposited by molecular beam epitaxy (MBE). At Johnson-Matthey Electronics, He was responsible for managing the materials group activities within a multi-million dollar Air Force Program called Manufacturing Technology for Solid State Microwave Systems. Mr. Shannon was also Product Marketing Manager for the company's compound semiconductor materials.
In 1990 Mr. Shannon joined a firm that would become the Arizona Stock Exchange (AZX, Inc) as Vice President. AZX created the first direct access equity trading system that would allow institutional clients to trade directly with one another, in a price determining call-market environment. He then became a partner and Senior Vice President of CompBid Inc., a company that facilitated anonymous basket trading of equities between fund managers and Wall Street dealers.
In 1996 Mr. Shannon returned to the semiconductor industry. He served as a sales and marketing executive for semiconductor equipment manufacturers MRC and CVC. Since early 1999 he has been Vice President of Sales and Marketing for a successful semiconductor equipment brokerage firm. He is a graduate of NEI College of Technology and is a member of IEEE and the Electron Devices Society. Mr. Shannon has published and spoken on various technical and financial topics.
I'm sure your climbing c-v doesn't compare with mine either. Now run off like a good little retard and pound sand. Oh, here are the publications.
Market Fragmentation and The Single Price Auction. Seattle Society of Financial Analysts, Seattle, WA. 10/3/1991
Innovations in trading, The Single Price Auction. The Columbine Quantitative Seminar, Colorado Springs, CO. 9/24/91
New Market Approaches for Electronic Execution, The Single Price Auction. Federation Internationale Des Bourses De Valeurs, Annual Conference, Chicago, IL. 9/18/91
Innovations in Electronic Trading, The Single Price Auction. FIM West Conference, Los Angeles, CA. 3/21/91
The Single Price Auction. DAIS Group Conference, LaQuinta, CA. 3/18/91
The Single Price Auction: Pricing, Liquidity, and the Regulatory Environment. POSIT Conference, Longboat Key, FL. 3/6/91
Trading Costs and The Single Price Auction. AIMR Annual Conference, Laguna Niguel, CA. October, 1990
Increased yield of microwave devices due to subsurface damage reduction in S.I. GaAs wafers. (with D. Rogers) Invited paper. Presented at the Semi-insulating III-V Materials Conference, Toronto, Canada, 5/90. Published in proceedings.
Laser-assisted C.V.D. monitoring using photothermal displacement. (with W. Weimer) Presented at 25th Colloquim Spectroscopium International, Toronto, Canada, June 1987.
Electron Traps in M.B.E. Al(x) Ga(1-x) As and the Temperature Dependence of the Threshold Voltage of MODFETS. (with S. Subramanian, U. Schuller, and J. Arthur) Published in Journal of Vacuum Science and Technology B2, 650, 1985.
edited to add the publications.
Curt
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curt
Dec 29, 2005, 1:50 AM
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In reply to: hmmmmm.....seems like something struck a nerve with wittle wes. tsk, tsk. boy curt, he really burned you off, huh? dorkn00b.
Well, if nothing else, his association with me on the internet has led to a measurable improvement in his spelling and grammatical skills.
Curt
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climbsomething
Dec 29, 2005, 1:50 AM
Post #170 of 265
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: CURT... get a high paying, serious job that requires your massive intellect. Then start winging around your juvenile insults. It'll at least be bit more on the level. Yeah Curt, ya french fry-slingin mouthbreather, super size that for me. You mean Curt's moved up from fries to taking orders? Dude, that's freakin' awesome. I'm guessing that Assistant Manager uniform is just around the corner. I'll bet the missus is so proud of him. |
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curt
Dec 29, 2005, 2:04 AM
Post #171 of 265
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: CURT... get a high paying, serious job that requires your massive intellect. Then start winging around your juvenile insults. It'll at least be bit more on the level. Yeah Curt, ya french fry-slingin mouthbreather, super size that for me. You mean Curt's moved up from fries to taking orders? Dude, that's freakin' awesome. I'm guessing that Assistant Manager uniform is just around the corner. I'll bet the missus is so proud of him. She thinks he's so cute in his visor and non-slip sneakers.
Those are steel-toed sneakers--for safety. Duh.
Curt
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sliamese
Dec 29, 2005, 2:21 AM
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LOL that was great!
whats that smell? bit like charcoal? smells like someone got burnt to a crisp!!! :lol:
do you think we'll get a lamearse comeback? hope so!!!
CLIMB ON!
Simon
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g
Deleted
Dec 29, 2005, 2:26 AM
Post #173 of 265
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In reply to: I'm sure your climbing c-v doesn't compare with mine either. Now run off like a good little retard and pound sand.
I haven't yet, God that approach sucks.
He's probably about the same level of climber as me, and I know Curt is a better climber than me.
AZ, I hope you made it out to the Valley earlier this month. I seem to recall that you were asking about the weather, and it did, in fact, clear up (so I went out one last time for the year).
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spanky_
Dec 29, 2005, 2:36 AM
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hah... i've never seen so much anger on this site. i used to like this site for the pictures, now it's just for this thread. i bet you all jump to your computers just as fast as you can to see what people have posted and to make sure that nobody has bashed on your lastest post (like they will this one), so that you can defend your ground and prove how smart you are. keep it coming!
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curt
Dec 29, 2005, 2:41 AM
Post #175 of 265
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In reply to: In reply to: I'm sure your climbing c-v doesn't compare with mine either. Now run off like a good little retard and pound sand. Come on Curt, he's done Braille Book! Have you done Braille Book? I haven't yet, God that approach sucks.
Yeah Greg, I did it 23 years ago. I highly recommend it.
Curt
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