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Light ax for High Sierra rock trips?
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sixleggedinsect


Jan 3, 2006, 10:42 PM
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Re: Light ax for High Sierra rock trips? [In reply to]
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As far as I know, you are not supposed to wear crampons that are more flexible than your shoe sole.

you mean you are not supposed to wear crampons that are more stiff than your shoe sole?

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So with tennis shoes or most non-mountaineering boots you'd want to have completely flexible crampons. The 490s are described as semi-rigid.

im sure its not optimal, but in the big scheme of things, i think they work great, and although a more flexible crampon wouild probably make the potential for bar breakage negligible, its a risk im willing to take. anyways, im not sure ive seen a crampon more flexible than mine without vertical rails and a hinge, and ive only seen those in steel.

the instep crampons, as brutus noted, are a great option for lots of summer alpine conditions, but sometimes i need something bigger and spikier, for steep stuff where i dont want to cut steps. ill get a pair of insteps before the next season, they'll do most of the approaches i've ever done. maybe all if id taken a little care.


sspssp


Jan 3, 2006, 10:52 PM
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Re: Light ax for High Sierra rock trips? [In reply to]
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You could try this system:

http://www.summitpost.org/mountains/photo_link.pl?photo_id=127164&object_id=4109&type=mountain&mountain_id=4109&route_id=

Alternately, the afore-mentioned Camp sells adjustable 6-point aluminum crampons, lighter than any ice axe, and far lighter than any full 10 or 12 point crampons. I use these on glacier approaches in the Bugaboos.

at 216 grams a pair, in the Sierra they usually provide enough security that you can leave the axe in the car:

Another option in addition to these (on Sun Ribbon for example) is to kick steps up the approach snow in the afternoon, when the snow is soft, providing a secure and frozen ladder of steps the next morning.

Brutus

I'm not sure how your organic trekking pole qualifies as adjustable (I guess you could always adjust it shorter).

Thanks for the above advice. I did a fair bit of Sierra climbing about ten years ago and I had big plans last summer but they didn't happen. Part of what set me back was the big snow pack last year so this year I want to be able to start earlier and not be shutdown/intimidated by the snow. So I'm crunching through options.

For morning approaches, crampons would be all that I would need, but I also worry about the [soft] snow on the descent [where you would want an ax instead of crampons]. Yea, a lot of times you can stay out of the gulley and just rock scramble, but what if you can't?

Or for your example of kicking steps the previous day, I would feel better being up there with an ax even if I didn't take it up the climb.

I had heard [but had forgotten] about the wool sock method. I'll check that out this spring during a training run.


sspssp


Jan 3, 2006, 11:04 PM
Post #28 of 34 (2702 views)
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Re: Light ax for High Sierra rock trips? [In reply to]
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If the route goes clean, I have no problems leaving clean gear behind for bail anchors. So why take pins on clean routes again??

Well, hhmmm, yea. Taking a few pins and maybe even a rivet setup alpine climbing is one of those, "great to have in an emergency, but not really worth the weight so you don't take it things..."

However, while researching my ice axes, I was also reading the 2005 edition of Accidents in North American Mountaineering and one of the accidents was a rapel failure in the alpine environment and the victim said he used to take pins, but stopped because of weight, but would always take them in the future...

So I started thinking, how much would I use the adze, maybe a hammer [instead of the adze] and few pins might be better. No, I'm professionally employed so leaving a few pieces of gear for an alpine retreat is no biggie but sometimes, nailing a seam might be the quickest bet (if you had a few KBs).

Then I got to thinking, well, does the ax really need a hammer to hammer with or could you hammer with the side of the thing [or maybe even the adze] anyway and well, one thing and another and I figured somebody out there had to have tried this so I thought I would ask and blah, blah...

By the way, you DID ask.

cheers

thanks again for the info


sixleggedinsect


Jan 3, 2006, 11:34 PM
Post #29 of 34 (2702 views)
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Re: Light ax for High Sierra rock trips? [In reply to]
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So I started thinking, how much would I use the adze, maybe a hammer [instead of the adze] and few pins might be better. No, I'm professionally employed so leaving a few pieces of gear for an alpine retreat is no biggie but sometimes, nailing a seam might be the quickest bet (if you had a few KBs).

but how many free routes have you climbed that would have mandatory KB rap anchors? if i was climbing in the winter and all the cracks are full of frozen crap, maybe pins would bail you out. but i think that free pro would do just as good a job as pitons in your average bail scene. hell, maybe you hammer a small nut in or two, but you should be able to figure something out if the rock will take enough pro to climb. unless you have a habit of escaping down blank faces on the other side of the mountain, i guess.

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Then I got to thinking, well, does the ax really need a hammer to hammer with or could you hammer with the side of the thing [or maybe even the adze] anyway and well, one thing and another and I figured somebody out there had to have tried this so I thought I would ask and blah, blah...

i think in a lot of situations where youd be carrying an axe, you coudl probably also find a rock. unless its bullsh* rock, it would probably do a better job than trying to hammer a pin with the side of an axe. ive pounded a few fixed pitons with a rock to firm 'em up a little. seemed to work fine.


brutusofwyde


Jan 4, 2006, 1:41 AM
Post #30 of 34 (2702 views)
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Re: Light ax for High Sierra rock trips? [In reply to]
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I'm not sure how your organic trekking pole qualifies as adjustable (I guess you could always adjust it shorter).

Unfortunately, that photo showed the trekking pole at full extension. Typically the hand should be at about2/3 height on the trekking pole. To adjust it longer, slide your hand up the pole. (sorry you asked?)

In reply to:
For morning approaches, crampons would be all that I would need, but I also worry about the [soft] snow on the descent [where you would want an ax instead of crampons]. Yea, a lot of times you can stay out of the gulley and just rock scramble, but what if you can't?

As you say, it depends on the descent. Often in the Sierra, there is snow on the approach but none (or none that can't be rappelled) on the descent.

and BTW, the 6-point crampons are not (as another poster mistakenly assumed) instep crampons. These babies fit right under the front part of the foot, where they actually do some good.

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Or for your example of kicking steps the previous day, I would feel better being up there with an ax even if I didn't take it up the climb.

(nodding) Again, it depends. Depends on the runout and landing at the bottom of the slope, the steepness and consistency of the snow, your comfort level, heck, even what kind of shoes you're wearing.

Lots of different strategies and combinations of these techniques possible too. For example: Top man takes 6-point crampons and lightweight axe, belays second who climbs in wool socks.

Or top man solos up, throws axe back down the slope to the second...

In reply to:
I had heard [but had forgotten] about the wool sock method. I'll check that out this spring during a training run.

That, plus the axe throw, was what we used on Sun Ribbon. It would have helped if the axe made it all the way down to the bottom...

:oops:

Brutus


sixleggedinsect


Jan 4, 2006, 1:50 AM
Post #31 of 34 (2702 views)
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Re: Light ax for High Sierra rock trips? [In reply to]
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and BTW, the 6-point crampons are not (as another poster mistakenly assumed) instep crampons. These babies fit right under the front part of the foot, where they actually do some good.

ho ho! i (the mistakenly assuming poster) looked these up.

http://www.camp-usa.com/module/product/detail.asp?ID=184

looks good! new toys to try! points for the front, no instep riser to make walking on rocks an ankle breaker, and a free heel for ball-free plunge stepping. thanks for the tip.

only 6 months til alpine season!


brutusofwyde


Jan 4, 2006, 2:10 AM
Post #32 of 34 (2702 views)
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Re: Light ax for High Sierra rock trips? [In reply to]
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but how many free routes have you climbed that would have mandatory KB rap anchors?

Direct NE Chimney of Mt. Waddington. Wadd Hose on Mt. Waddington. Japanese Route on Mt. Alberta. Numerous other routes on limestone peaks in the Canadian Rockies. Regular route on Castle Rock Spire in California. Several long routes in the High Sierra, including the tyrolean anchor on the climb mentioned earlier in this thread, Sun Ribbon Arete. (or maybe those are angles, senility takes its toll.)

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if i was climbing in the winter and all the cracks are full of frozen crap, maybe pins would bail you out. but i think that free pro would do just as good a job as pitons in your average bail scene.

News Flash: "Free" does not equal "clean". Free = no aid. Clean = no hammered pro. There is clean aid, and there is free climbing protected by pins, bolts, and other hammered anchors. As far as the average bail scene, it depends on where you climb. Most long, free alpine routes in the Canadian Rockies I'll take a hammer and some titanium KBs, possibly some LAs and even an angle or two. Some of the lesser travelled routes in the Tetons, too. California High Sierra I wouldn't bother, for most established CLEAN or HAFWEN routes, be they aid or free.

In reply to:
hell, maybe you hammer a small nut in or two, but you should be able to figure something out if the rock will take enough pro to climb.

Come to think of it, we even needed KBs for one of the belay anchors on the FFA of Red Baron Tower in the Tuttle Creek area of the Sierra.

In reply to:
unless you have a habit of escaping down blank faces on the other side of the mountain, i guess.

you would be surprised at how often this seems to happen to me.

In reply to:
i think in a lot of situations where youd be carrying an axe, you coudl probably also find a rock. unless its bullsh* rock, it would probably do a better job than trying to hammer a pin with the side of an axe. ive pounded a few fixed pitons with a rock to firm 'em up a little. seemed to work fine.

I've pounded or tested numerous pins with handy rocks. Lightweight axe, never needed to. In alpine, I've often taken a carbon-fiber Black Prophet, with hammer instead of Adze.

But in nearly every case where I needed to place pins on the descent, I've already been carrying a hammer and pins. Fixed pins are another story, and there are literally thousands of rap routes, even in California, that rely in some place on fixed pins. If you neither back these up nor test them, you are introducing a dangerous and unknown quantity into your climbing.


sixleggedinsect


Jan 4, 2006, 10:51 AM
Post #33 of 34 (2702 views)
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Re: Light ax for High Sierra rock trips? [In reply to]
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News Flash: "Free" does not equal "clean". Free = no aid. Clean = no hammered pro. There is clean aid, and there is free climbing protected by pins, bolts, and other hammered anchors. As far as the average bail scene, it depends on where you climb. Most long, free alpine routes in the Canadian Rockies I'll take a hammer and some titanium KBs, possibly some LAs and even an angle or two. Some of the lesser travelled routes in the Tetons, too. California High Sierra I wouldn't bother, for most established CLEAN or HAFWEN routes, be they aid or free.

i hear you, and i know you're right. im not really saying that you would never need a pin on a free route. or thats not what i meant to say, anyways. what i meant to say is that if you likely need pins, you likely had them. thats what i was alluding to when i mentioned "but you should be able to figure something out if the rock will take enough pro to climb". IMHE, different types of rocks lend themselves to different types of pro, and you could generally bail off anything you climbed as long as you dont run out of pro. (unless you're doing the blank face escape, as previously alluded to).

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But in nearly every case where I needed to place pins on the descent, I've already been carrying a hammer and pins.

thats just it. if the rock type lent itself to pitons, you probably had them in the first place. i suppose an established route with a boatload of fixed pitons might muss up my generalization, but i still cant think of anything ive climbed that i couldn't go back down on clean gear.

but, your mileage may (does?) vary. you clearly have more experience with routes that require pins than i do.


brogant


Jan 4, 2006, 2:12 PM
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Re: Light ax for High Sierra rock trips? [In reply to]
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You want light? Has anyone actually seen one of these? A 5 ounce axe!

http://www.ula-equipment.com/helix.htm

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