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socalclimber
Jan 7, 2006, 3:55 PM
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In reply to: That would explain the 'never got the email...' DMT
That it would.
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mheyman
Jan 7, 2006, 4:19 PM
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The problems reported about Aliens and CCH are indeed serious.
I’m an engineer and kind of a gear head. I have been climbing for a bit over ten years. During that time information from CCH has never been easily available. It has been my impression that at least until recently they were a garage manufacturer, and that although their basic design may be very good. CCH has never appeared to be technically savvy in the use of technology. This has not prevented me from buying, owning or using Aliens in the past.
Many of us have seen their web site.
Most of us have seen their responses that include almost no technical information, manufacturing, testing, and product assurance.
Here are my current thoughts:
I am afraid that CCH’s lack of any reassuring informative response may be because good technical information may simply not be available.
Certainly the rest of the manufacturing world has taken note of the importance and rallied around, and even required things like testing, traceabillity, and response to manufacturing problems with programs such as ISO. It is possible that it is only CCH’s marketing and publicity that is suffering, But, at this time I have to wonder whether there is anyone at CCH who is knowledgeable in these technical areas. Virtually all the engineers I have worked with for the past 20 years are familiar with technology and its uses. Most companies are proud of their improvement and make it a point to use their programs in their marketing. I have to wonder strongly at this time why CCH has not done this.
If it is true that CCH has not been manufacturing to modern standards, then I think that it is time for CCH to bring itself into the modern manufacturing world, by using engineering in design and manufacturing to assure quality product, and generally do what is necessary to maintain their reputation. Personally I won’t hold it against them for being decidedly low tech in the past. But I do hope that they use this wakeup call and opportunity to either provide the kind of reassuring information we are looking for, or admit that they have not done this in the past, but and will guarantee that all future product will be manufactured to modern standards.
If CCH cannot or will not do this, then as introduced in this thread, then I hope they do sell the Alien design and rights to a company that can and will.
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socalclimber
Jan 7, 2006, 7:39 PM
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Interesting points. One thing I would like to point out, while CCH does have a loyal following (include me), they do produce fairly "niche" gear, i.e., limited market, therfore, limited profits. Heading down the road you are speaking of is expensive. My guess, it's not their unwillingness, but their lack of funds.
With all this said, it does not excuse their pathetic response to the "accusations". Again, they are now all lawyered up and, will not be responding anytime soon. Also, there is no excuse for their lack of an accurate email address on their website to post issues with inquiries regarding their products. Really unfortunate.
Robert
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mheyman
Jan 7, 2006, 8:46 PM
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In reply to: One thing I would like to point out...they do produce fairly "niche" gear, i.e., limited market, therfore, limited profits. Heading down the road you are speaking of is expensive. My guess, it's not their unwillingness, but their lack of funds.
!) I have accepted this reasoning in the past
2) But, it is not that expensive to (if necessary to hire a consultant to set up a program) do a little testing and record keeping.
3) Climbing has become far more popular and CCH has become widely distributed. The truth is that if it becomes apparent that they cannot guarantee their QC they will be dropped from REI in a flash and likely many other distributors as well.
I believe that because of the nature of the product that they offer, they must prove that they have been conforming or change their ways immediately.
Sure many including me appreciate the basic design of their product. But I don’t think any of us wants to worry about gear failure. It is, and always has been part of their job to convince us that gear failure (of their product) is not an issue. We accepted that there was there was reason to worry before. Now there is at least reason to question, and they need to do a better job – at least to convince me.
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mheyman
Jan 7, 2006, 8:49 PM
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In reply to: One thing I would like to point out...they do produce fairly "niche" gear, i.e., limited market, therefore, limited profits. Heading down the road you are speaking of is expensive. My guess, it's not their unwillingness, but their lack of funds.
!) I have accepted this reasoning in the past
2) But, it is not that expensive to (if necessary to hire a consultant to set up a program) do a little testing and record keeping.
3) Climbing has become far more popular, and CCH has become widely distributed. The truth is that if it becomes apparent that they cannot guarantee their QC, they will be dropped from REI in a flash and likely many other distributors too.
I believe that because of the nature of the product that they offer, they must prove that they have been conforming or change their ways immediately.
Sure many including me appreciate the basic design of their product. But I don’t think any of us wants to worry about gear failure. It is, and always has been part of their job to convince us that gear failure (of their product) is not an issue. We accepted that there was there was reason to worry before. Now there is at least reason to question, and they need to do a better job – at least to convince me.
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socalclimber
Jan 7, 2006, 8:57 PM
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Again, some interesting points. I'm not exactly sure how to respond. I still believe that the whole process is very exspensive for them. Regardless of the sudden boom in climbing, not everyone finds the same value in aliens that I do, versus BD or Metolius. Bigger names. I guess we will just have to sit back and see what happens to rise from the ashes of this.
Again, CCH's response was really not in their best interests, or their customers.
Robert
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cruzinsouthoc
Jan 7, 2006, 11:53 PM
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just because they are a small company and make niche gear doesn't mean they do not have to follow industry standards for quality control or testing.
It seems like many manufacturers rate their gear at 3 standard deviations (3 sigma) which means that less than a percent of the pieces will fail at lower than the rated load. How do we know that they don't rate their gear based on average failure load? Which means that half of all products they make will fail at a load which is lower than the rated load. They may very well use 3 Sigma or a straight safety factor... Nobody seems to know.
For quality control, they may or may not follow ISO standards... That, I don't know for sure. If they don't, then what method do they employ for quality control? Is it a visual check, do they pull test each piece or every other piece before it leaves the factory? or do they have a priest sprinkle holy water on each batch? This is something I'd like to know as well.
So if they have been employing their own method of QC and testing because they can't afford to do it in as much detail as BD or Metolius, then fine, we can't really change what they've already done. However, I still think they should be clear on how they have performed QC and load rating tests so we can all make our own judgement as to the reliability of the products.
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tgreene
Jan 8, 2006, 12:51 AM
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Even if this happens to have been a very isolated 1-in-a-million incident of total equipment failure, questions concerning equipment integrity are now on everyones mind, which is the last thing that any manufacturer ever wants to have to endure. -- Right or wrong, the court of public opinion is in session, and it's a capitol case!
Having worked in the manufacturing industry (as well as having invented and manufactured a number of products myself), I know firsthand what's involved in safely putting products on the market.
First off, safety comes in many forms, and in the industry in which I dealt with certifications (commercial gas cooking equipment), the most difficult aspect of receiving certs from ITL or UL was writing the checks, because it costs several thousand dollars per unit, and each and every time a product spec is changed, it has to be re-certified. This includes cosmetic enhancements! We had products that were bother certified and non-certified, as well as a complete lower cost line of equipment that was nearly identical in spec, but with a lessor warranty and no certs. For individually owned "Mom & Pop" restaurants, this was ideal, but most chains, hotels, airlines and all .gov bids required certs, as well as many insurance companies.
It was a stupid process that required sending off a full set of schematics & materials sheet, as well as a full set of diagrams and instructions that the end user would receive. Then the testing agency would make arrangements to send an inspector out to "inspect" and "certify" the equipment. This old guy would drive 5 hours each way from Chicago to spend 30-45 minutes chatting with us and then spend the last 5-10 minutes of his visit to look over the equipment and sign off on it... This cost us roughly $10,000 per SKU# that we either wanted or needed to have that magical little sticker placed on.
With all that said; when it comes to climbing equipment, we've actually been very fortunate that this industry DOES NOT have an oversight watchdog committee, because if it did, we would certainly be paying for it, and in more ways than one!
Rather than spending an average of $35-$55 for cams, we could easily be forced to pay $75-$100 per unit, in order for the manufacturers to be able to maintain the same bottom lines as they currently are (and it isn't a lucrative industry). Insurance companies, lawyers, manufacturing associations and testing labs would be eating up the difference.
To make matters worse, we're a bunch of hard-headed dirtbags that are damn well going to climb anyway, so suddenly there will be a sharp increase in the number of climbing related injuries and deaths, with climbers that will risk run-outs, because they simply couldn't afford the additional cams that were necessary to sew up the route that ultimately cost them their lives.
Due to the rapid increase in injuries and even deaths, access issues will quickly become the main focus of legal battles, insurance will skyrocket and put manufacturers out of business , and climbing will be forced "underground"... At this point the circle will be complete, and we'll be buying gear for garage manufacturers with less certs and testing, as well as sneaking through the underbrush, just so we can climb...................
Anyone that thinks I'm nuts, only needs to look as far as the firearms and tobacco industries. This same thing has devasted the commercial whitewater rafting industry as well, because of the drastic $$$ increase of permits, certs, insurance and lawsuits! :evil:
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mheyman
Jan 8, 2006, 1:48 PM
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In reply to: Anyone that thinks I'm nuts, only needs to look as far as the firearms and tobacco industries. This same thing has devasted the commercial whitewater rafting industry as well, because of the drastic $$$ increase of permits, certs, insurance and lawsuits!
Tim you're not nuts, but I think your figures are a little high. If they were not then all the other major brand cams would already be near the costs you are estimating. EX: BD is ISO, pull tests, and carries the CE mark. Right? Their cams don’t cost over $100 for the sizes that Aliens compete with.
For one thing the testing industry is becoming competitive. I used to use UL. Now I have several testing bodies to choose from which are all faster and less expensive than UL used to be, and as a result UL is trying to keep it's customers by keep pace with them. Once a good lawsuit has occurred, then a climbing companies insurance rates will reflect that too – and it won’t be less expensive than decent QC.
IN CCH’s case there have only been a few changes over the years. I am sure they could get the whole product line approve in on pass and fee. This would have had to be done for each of the changes as you state. What they really need to do is go ISO, and pull test each unit to be sure that no really major defects get out. OK going ISO will cost them a bit, but they need to do it if they haven’t.
For those that don’t know, ISO is a program to which at least ensures traceabillity to at least the batch level, and lays out a program of response to problems.
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healyje
Jan 8, 2006, 2:14 PM
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CCH probably doesn't need a full blown ISO / Six Sigma / CE program though one would be nice. It also doesn't have to be rocket science. You could just make a negative jig for each cam size with a axle and every run on the CNC cutting cam lobes you take one of the first ones and see if it fits in the jig befor making a shit load of them. Then after assembling the cams really look at them hard and pull test each and every one so we don't have to bounce test them before climb on them. There are certainly other things they could do and probably should, but even those two simple things woul improve the situation at hand enormously.
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tgreene
Jan 8, 2006, 3:33 PM
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Keep in mind, that many of the companies that are already seeking certs and standardization, are owned by huge corporate conglomerates or like Trango, work with a manufacturing partner to defray costs. Quite possibly the best thing for CCH, would be to partner up w/ Trango and their Czech manufacturing partner.
Also, what testing is done at this point, is voluntary, as there are no federal or industry requirements in place. Once this happens (and it's only a matter of time), it will automatically create an industry position for specialized insurances and attorneys, along with "mandatory" costly oversite organizations and peer groups... That's when we'll begin to see the skyrocketing costs of gear, and the negative effects that come with it.
Each and every time I tie in, I unconditionally accept 100% full and total responsibility for what may happen to me at any given moment. I'm also aware that no matter how stringent some manufacturers testing practices may be, nothing is perfect, and rocks fragment and release gear all the time... That's just a part of the game that we play, albeit the very negative part!
Numerous responses have been made in regards to Chouinard's mistakes, but I doubt they really know the truth about what killed the company that will forever be remembered in the form of the Black Diamond logo. Chouinard was sued into oblivion because of some dumbass that untied himself to take a piss, while resting on the ledge of a guided climb. When he was done, he didn't tie back in properly, and eventually fell to his death. The lawyers were fighting each other to get to the family, and eventually everyone but Chouinard and the dead guy won...
The same thing nearly happened to me in 1993, when my own ignorance cost me a 75 foot fall and a broken back. Immediately after being Life Flighted into Pittsburgh, numerous members of the medical staff STRONGLY suggested I get a lawyer immediately to sue Black Diamond and the store where I bought my gear, that happened to be owned by a good friend. To make matters worse, reporters kept calling and trying to visit me while I was in the Neuro ICU ward, and they all said the same thing, to varrying degrees... It seemed that damn near everyone had suggestions on who should be sued, and why. {see RED text above}
FWIW: The NRA was once a small struggling group like the 'Access Fund', but as legislation increased, they quickly become corporate whores themselves. As much as I despise the NRA for what they've become, I had no alternative but to support them when I owned a high-end tactical firearms store, even though our classification was always the first to be sold down the river, anytime the political heat was on.
Now, I'm certainly not dismissing what happened with the CCH Aliens in questions, but I do believe this witch hunt needs to be toned way down. I also feel that it would be in the best interest of all of us, if the climbing industry were to stay away from testing labs and certification standards such as UL/ITE/ISO/etc, and instead work together to devise and adopt their own industry wide system that is based on peer review and ethics. Ths is a very close knit community where most of these guys are friends and/or climbing partners of one another, so it shouldn't be too difficult for them to hold a round table on the subject. We've already seen that Paul Fish and Mal Daly have been following this closely, because regardless of the company in question, this ultimately affects each and every one of us.
Before this incident arose, I was on the fence between Aliens and Zero's for my micros, and to be honest, I shifted to the Zero's, but still would love to have a set of Hybrids because of the tapered cracks that are so common here in the Arkansas sandstone. If one were to lean towards "brand loyalty", it would honestly be difficult to climb anything other than BD, Metolius or WC, because of the ultra-wide ranges of gear they manufacture. This is also why it's virtually impossible (and not wise) to put one company or another on such a high pedestal. Personally, aside from my 2 BD Airlock Screwgates and 6 Metolius Super-ovals, all of my other biners (roughly 60) are Trango Classic wires/locks/straight gates. I love the flat profile, and have modified all of my QD's to be a Classic wiregate on the rope end, and a Classic straight-gate on the bolt side -- {it's actually a shame they don't sell them like this!} My anchor draws are setup as Trango Classic lockers on the bolt side, and the Metolius Super-ovals on the rope end because I like the extra beefy radius for smooth rope feeds that don't create drag. As for belay devices, I own many, but since I bought a B-52, the others have essentially become paper weights. (BTW: my 75' fall was on an ATC while on rap)
My cams are Trango Flexi's (not the newest style), supplimented by Ball Nutz, and I have a set of Zero's on the way (late Christmas gift). I also have a Metolius Supercam to cover a wide range as a last resort. I would love to add another set of Trango cams to double up on the large 5, but due to the lack of funds (the hurricanes fucked us up financially), it will be quite a while before I'm able to do so. :(
If you can get past my rambling, my point is pretty clear.........................!
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mheyman
Jan 8, 2006, 4:13 PM
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Don't have time to write, but but the record keeping ISO requires is not that expensive and it need to be done with or without ISO approval.
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tgreene
Jan 8, 2006, 4:35 PM
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I agree that accurate safety data record keeping is no more involved than what it takes to create and maintain a bill of materials, and is ESSENTIAL in the event of an investigation or lawsuit, because before anything else, it PROVES a level of proactive awareness is in place...
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karlbaba
Jan 8, 2006, 4:40 PM
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Anybody's who's tried to work with CCH in the past probably realizes that they aren't a big fan of being a company, meeting the demand for their product, or responding to customers. That's their style and choice.
It seems to have reached a point where that style might cost them big money and cost somebody else much worse.
Come on CCH license your product to someobody who will produce it in quality and to meet demand. You'll probably make just as much and not have to work cause more will be sold. You can hire out as consultants on the product as well.
Everybody wins. Otherwise, with the lobe and braze defects we're seeing, it's only a matter of time before some lawyer eats you up.
BTW Aliens rule in Yosemite pin scars. I'd love to abandon them, cause they they flaked on my orders two years in a row, but nothing else works where Aliens work in Pin scars
Peace
Karl
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cracklover
Jan 8, 2006, 4:43 PM
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In reply to: Each and every time I tie in, I unconditionally accept 100% full and total responsibility for what may happen to me at any given moment. I'm also aware that no matter how stringent some manufacturers testing practices may be, nothing is perfect, and rocks fragment and release gear all the time... That's just a part of the game that we play, albeit the very negative part!
For the most part, I'm with you 100% on that one.
In reply to: The same thing nearly happened to me in 1993, when my own ignorance cost me a 75 foot fall and a broken back. Immediately after being Life Flighted into Pittsburgh, numerous members of the medical staff STRONGLY suggested I get a lawyer immediately to sue Black Diamond and the store where I bought my gear, that happened to be owned by a good friend. To make matters worse, reporters kept calling and trying to visit me while I was in the Neuro ICU ward, and they all said the same thing, to varrying degrees... It seemed that damn near everyone had suggestions on who should be sued, and why. {see RED text above}
I agree that most of these lawsuits are complete BS. You get someone who's majorly messed up, thinking "why me" and feeling vulnerable, or you get a family that's searching for answers, and a lawyer approaches them and offers to get them "what they deserve", or "justice". It's human nature - they're going to reach out to those who are reaching out to them when they're feeling hurt and vulnerable. Especially families, who do not really understand the degree of personal responsibility inherant in roping up.
Even worse, some insurance companies may insist that you sue. For example, a few years ago my gf at the time was hit by a car while riding her bike. The health insurance company decided that the guy who hit her was at fault, and insisted on suing. Had she not gone along with it, she would have had to pay much of her medical bills out of pocket.
GO
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curt
Jan 8, 2006, 5:35 PM
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In reply to: ...Come on CCH license your product to someobody who will produce it in quality and to meet demand. You'll probably make just as much and not have to work cause more will be sold. You can hire out as consultants on the product as well...
Excellent idea.
Curt
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curt
Jan 8, 2006, 6:32 PM
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In reply to: ...your best bet is to shut up, deal with the situation offline, and never waste time on this site. Good luck!
Since you have never contributed or posted anything of value here, perhaps you should take your own advice.
Curt
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leapinlizard
Jan 8, 2006, 7:02 PM
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I have a good friend that was wrapped up in a lawsuit similar to this one a couple years ago. The company for which he was a Vp at the time for, manufactured gear for another type of specialized sport. Anyway, one of the tiems that he had manufactured was done in Italy. What happened was someone that was using this particular peice of equipment had gotten hurt while using it, even though he had not used it in the correct way, and probably would have gotten hurt using it anyway this person sought out a lawsuit. The loophole he used is that the owners manual for the item didn't outline the one particular way that he misused it. The responsibility of this was supposed to fall upon the italian manufaturer, but in the long run, because of legal fees, the only company that was bankrupt was my friends, even though this person lost the lawsuit. While it is sad that anyone can be sued at any time for just about anything in this country, there still needs to be some type of accountability. CCH should have not made any statement to anyone, except to tell us that they were doing all that they could to make sure there was no danger for its clients. Beyond that, none of will probably have any consolation about this issue for a little while, since testing takes time. As a devoted Alien user, I hope that the wait is shorter rather than longer, but till then I will inspect my cams, as I usually do every so often anyways, and then I will climb on them. The only other thing I really have to say on the subject is that while I do still love my aliens, I won't be able to totally trust them till this is resolved. Anyway, I am sure there are those of you that feel the same. Cheers
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saxfiend
Jan 8, 2006, 7:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ...your best bet is to shut up, deal with the situation offline, and never waste time on this site. Good luck! Since you have never contributed or posted anything of value here, perhaps you should take your own advice. Curt
JL
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sixleggedinsect
Jan 9, 2006, 1:22 AM
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In reply to: One thing I would like to point out, while CCH does have a loyal following (include me), they do produce fairly "niche" gear, i.e., limited market, therfore, limited profits.
i fail to see how a company who manages to sell all the stock it can make has a limited market with limited profits. even REI goes on backorder, and every lil' store between SF and boston gets an alien a year and thinks its high times.
sure, you could saturate any market, but they ain't even close. most of the places i climb, people would like an alien-BD rack. you accusing BD of being niche gear too? and then there's the rest of the world. all the import climbers i meet covet the aliens, but they can't get them for love or money on the wrong side of the pond.
In reply to: Heading down the road you are speaking of is expensive. My guess, it's not their unwillingness, but their lack of funds.
really? i don't get that impression at all.
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sixleggedinsect
Jan 9, 2006, 1:31 AM
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In reply to: To make matters worse, we're a bunch of hard-headed dirtbags that are damn well going to climb anyway, so suddenly there will be a sharp increase in the number of climbing related injuries and deaths, with climbers that will risk run-outs, because they simply couldn't afford the additional cams that were necessary to sew up the route that ultimately cost them their lives.
were climber injury stats significantly higher before active pro? id guess no (although it woudln't mean either of us are right). are you serious about this forecast?
i think there would be a sharp increase in the number of people toproping;)
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happiegrrrl
Jan 9, 2006, 2:16 AM
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In reply to: i fail to see how a company who manages to sell all the stock it can make has a limited market with limited profits.
The limited market are those who use active protection for climbing. There is no other "market segment" that uses the product. Q Tips, for example have a more broad market. Most people stock them at home for personal use, and they can also be use for other things - cleaning nooks and crannies of an item, even as a painting tool.... Those are called "secondary markets." There are no secondary markets for climbing gear....except biners, I suppose. The number of climbers, though growing, is not a very big number, from a commercial perspective. And, thoguh I am guessing....I would say the growth is not as fast in traditional climbing, but more toward sport climbing, gym climbing and bouldering.
That they sell all their stock consistently also "costs" them money because of the added work involved in rpocessing. It's much nier when a company can pack a box, ship, invoice and collect payment. Anything additional...costs money, which comes from the overhead.
And, just because one sells all their product does not mean they are making bucketloads of cash. Everything costs money, and it all comes out of overhead. From the cost of materials to the lease on the office space, to the salary of employees...... And remember, a cam that cost $55 in the store is being shipped from the manufacturer at "somewhere" around half that cost.(I don't know retail markup for gear).
Ot's all very interesting, if you like that sort of thing. But it's pretty amazing, how quickly that $55 dwindles down to a few dollars profit per peiece sold, or even less.......
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socalclimber
Jan 9, 2006, 2:23 AM
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In reply to: I fail to see how a company who manages to sell all the stock it can make has a limited market with limited profits. even REI goes on backorder, and every lil' store between SF and boston gets an alien a year and thinks its high times. sure, you could saturate any market, but they ain't even close. most of the places i climb, people would like an alien-BD rack. you accusing BD of being niche gear too? and then there's the rest of the world. all the import climbers i meet covet the aliens, but they can't get them for love or money on the wrong side of the pond.
Easy there sister, I never "accused" anyone of anything. I think either you mis-interpreted my statement or I just did a poor job of conveying my message. My point on niche gear is that aliens are not even close to "main stream" by comparison to BD or Metolius. I'm a big fan of Aliens from an aid climbing stand point. Especially the hybrids. I do use them free climbing. The vast majority of racks I see here in Josh and the valley aren't comprised of Aliens. They just are not "main stream". Meaning, I don't believe them to have the same capacity to deliver large quantities of product to a fairly limited, but, hungry following.
Robert
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sixleggedinsect
Jan 9, 2006, 2:36 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: i fail to see how a company who manages to sell all the stock it can make has a limited market with limited profits.
That they sell all their stock consistently also "costs" them money because of the added work involved in rpocessing. It's much nier when a company can pack a box, ship, invoice and collect payment. Anything additional...costs money, which comes from the overhead.
what? selling all their stock costs money? come on, happiegirl. why are you posting this stuff? sure, reprocessing might cost a buck, but they can choose to pay that buck and reap the additional profit, or not restock and not pay the buck.
In reply to: And, just because one sells all their product does not mean they are making bucketloads of cash. ... But it's pretty amazing, how quickly that $55 dwindles down to a few dollars profit per peiece sold, or even less.......
sure thing, happiegirl, but you're missing the point i think. im not saying the profit margin is huge. i am saying they should be getting by. plenty of other companies are doing just fine with smaller markets, or larger overhead.
were you the person who repeatedly mentioned their small business in earlier posts? if so, did you consistently sell out of everything you could stock? were people hiring you for every hour you made available? i highly, HIGHLY doubt that you would complain if that were the case.
every manufacturer has to deal with the same markups. its not like cch is the only company which has to sell to retailers at wholesale prices, and they sure aren't the folks with the most overhead.
come to think of it, i wonder why cch (with its low output and high demand) doesnt drop the retailer contracts and sell direct to consumer. they could put an extra ten bucks a cam into quality control, and still have enough left over for imported beer and six salaried co-eds for order processing and PR.
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