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buddhaclimber
Jan 9, 2006, 9:02 PM
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I've been researchibg PS and am curious about alternatives to hauling on pitch 9. I know you can do the route without hauling and I know that if you do haul it's a nightmare on P9. From looking at the topo it looks like you might be able to fix the last 2 pitches rap release/lower the bags out and then haul to the top. Am planning on doing this solo and am thinking about strategies. thanks
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imnotclever
Jan 10, 2006, 1:55 PM
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Hey Ron, does your own cleverness sometimes bug you? I mean it's like this every time.
To the OP, I can't help you. I just figured I'd take this time to be a smartass.
Wait, I can help, watch.... BUMP.
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epic_ed
Jan 12, 2006, 6:16 AM
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I haven't completed the route but what I've seen from watching other on the last two pitches, what I've heard from friends who have climbed it, and what I've observed from the top of the route -- there's no way to avoid the loose chossy gully at the top. You may be able to avoid the chimney hauling by doing as you suggest, but the other major challenge is to not knock off a ton of loose rock and possibly endanger others on the route.
I, too, am planning to finish soloing it this spring. My plan is to go the second day with just small backpack and wear it while jugging/cleaning. I think wearing the pack while cleaning is the best approach to getting through that last pitch without a major CF.
Ed
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holdplease2
Jan 12, 2006, 6:49 AM
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Fix and fire works nicely solo, that way you can eliminate the hauling. The second half of the route goes faster than the first half.
Or, if you choose to haul and bivy, you should have very little weight when you top out. Wear your rack when you top out and leave it.
Rap down, then put your (should be) small haul pack on and jug up with your non-ledge load. Rap back down, toss yer ledge in your pack and jug again.
The jug is low angle for the most part. It will suck, but after the wall, you will be so happy to top out that it won't even phase you. A crap top out is almost always part of the deal.
Doing it this way reduces the chances of knocking things loose with a dragging pack and hurting someone.
Just my 2 cents. Have fun.
-Kate.
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mikeehartley
Jan 13, 2006, 7:49 PM
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What Kate said...
Fix and fire is great if you are in shape. When soloing though I like to be able to stop if I get tired and (more) stupid. Less pressure to keep climbing when your brain is at half a tank.
There is no reasonable chance of avoiding loose rock on the last pitch. Think 40 degree sandbox stacked with rocks. It's low angle enough that you don't even need aiders while jugging it. Just punch in on the clock, turn off the brain, and it will be over in "no" time.
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dangle
Jan 16, 2006, 5:33 AM
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Took time out from my curmudgeon training and found THIS embarassment.
Prodigal SUN!
SUN!
SUN!
SUN!
SUN!
SUN!
Getting it yet?
This time of year more like
NO SUN
NO SUN
NO SUN
Its not cleverness its more like a no brainer.
WTF do you want to be on it now for???? Do something that faces south. Or at least east.
Was looking at it last week and I think hauling should be banned.
Look at the drag trails, the haul buffing.
If even I can do it in a half day then people who can't do it in a whole one should stay TF OFF!
Go practise on something smaller until you're not gonna be an obstruction on a popular route.
Throw away your phuquing tick list and embrace the learning process. What are you seeking, experience or bragging rights?
Start acting like other people use the rocks too or else none of us will be able to.
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buddhaclimber
Jan 16, 2006, 5:57 AM
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Nice response. Might want to try training more (I hear exercise relieves stress) or you might try anger management classes. :lol:
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epic_ed
Jan 16, 2006, 6:43 AM
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Buddha -- Ron has a point. He really isn't slamming you or your abilities, he's just asking you to consider if you're ready to do a heavily trafficked route (though not this time of year) in good style. Why does it matter? Well, no one can tell you or I when we're ready, but for decaying resources like some of the popular trade routes in Zion we really ought to take into consideration the kind of impact our climb is going to have on the route. Prodigal is not a route that would be fun to haul on. The fact that doing so has the highest impact on the route should really make you consider why you would want to haul. If it's for the portaledge experience, this isn't the right climb. There are other, better choices in Zion.
Why does it matter to Ron? Well, you may not know who he is, but a good clue would be to look up who has put up some of the more popular routes in Zion. I think you'll find the name "Olevsky" a few times.
Ed
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buddhaclimber
Jan 16, 2006, 7:25 AM
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I hear what you're saying and what he is saying. My response was meant as a joke and at the same time the tone of his response is anger laden. No disrespect intended.
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mikeehartley
Jan 16, 2006, 4:09 PM
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I'm not buying that hauling on Prodigal is always a mortal sin (excluding the last pitch where you will surely go to hell). Of course it has an impact; everything does. No different than almost every freeclimb in Yosemite which can be identified from a mile away by its white streak where the lichen is gone. Trail braiding is a much more serious issue than hauling.
Being considerate of others is key. I chose to solo (and haul) the route in July simply because I was fairly sure that most would chose otherwise. It was 106 when I started. I saw a party on the first pitch and then I was alone. Even though I do well in the heat that's not what I would call ideal climbing weather. I just couldn't imagine doing it in peak season and clogging the route.
Saying you should only do it in a day is like a good freeclimber saying you should stay off the Nose if you can't do it in less than 8 hours ("frigging gumbies clogging the route"). We all play on the same basketball court. It's called sharing. I'm more for keeping the rules to a minimum, the destruction to a minimum, and being considerate of other.
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epic_ed
Jan 16, 2006, 5:03 PM
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Mike, in most cases I would agree with you, and in fact, used to share that point of view. I have come to believe that Zion is different. Since rock errosion happens so quickly and easily on the sandstone in Zion, it's imperative to consider how our style impacts the very popular trade routes that get about 90% of the climbing traffic. It would be different if we were talking about a lesser traveled route that only gets a few ascents a year, but a route like Prodigal Sun gets a beating several times a day during prime season.
The impact is visible and it adds up quickly -- so quickly, that the concern is how much longer will the trade routes be viable climbs? You've seen a few of them -- how many more decades do you think it will be before Prodigal, or Touchstone, or Moonlight has too many blown out placements to be done without adding even more drilled angles and other fixed pro? Hauling doesn't create these kind of problems, but it certainly doesn't help.
I'm not trying to sound elitist -- God knows, I can barely climb a ladder these days, but the point is my mind has been changed about what style of climbing is acceptible on Zion trade routes. My first attempt at Prodigal involved two grade V haul bags and enough luxury accomodations for three days. Thankfully we didn't make it past P4. But here's one thing I can admit in retrospect -- if hauling and turning a grade IV route into a multiday adventure sounded like a good idea to me at that point in time, can you imagine what kind of placements I was making on my way up? Bounce testing cams because I didn't have enough experience on sandstone to know what would or wouldn't hold; placing too many cams per pitch because I didn't feel comfortable getting into my upper steps; yanking out nuts without regard to how it came out because I was in a hurry.
How many n00b aid climbers go to do a route like Prodigal and make those same rookie mistakes? If hauling on a route like Prodigal sounds like a good idea, then you probably don't have the judgement and experience necessary to make as little impact as possible. The routes are not a renewable resource and they are getting a lot of annual abuse. I'm not proposing we should have some sort of litmus test for proving we're qualified to do some of these routes, but I'm just trying to encourage everyone to be as thoughtful as possible when deciding what routes to do and in what style they should be done.
Ed
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dangle
Jan 16, 2006, 5:12 PM
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Yo bud,
before you look up FAs try looking up curmudgeon. Sheesh!
Still some anger is NOT a joke.
Just imagine you find a paradise, so you share it with your friends. Then they do the same and pretty soon the paradise turns into a junkyard.
It really doesn't need to happen and can CERTAINLY be mitigated by people thinking just a little outside their bubble of personal fun.
Do we need the park service to tell us we're trashing the place? If so they'll tell us all right. They'll tell us Zion is now closed to climbing.
And yet I constantly see people that don't want to bother to learn on small walls before they move onto irreplaceable classics. And on them they don't even want to topstep and thus they obstruct more competent climbers and more importantly wear placements substantially more. As if that isn't bad enough they then drag bivy gear along wearing off the beautiful patina as they go.
So take your angry and clever and stick it where the prodigal sun doesn't shine. I'm trying to see that climbers a century from now can still enjoy the place, that the legacy of human utilization is not ALWAYS devastation.
Mikee,
BOTH are serious issues. I don't know about drag buffing in the Valley, but I doubt its as conspicuous.
Unfortunately many climbers don't realize that May and September are good for PS and November and March are good for TW etc.
I've seen lines on PS in January.
So going at "off" times is not a workable rationale nor is it an excuse for heavy impact behavior.
I don't think its fair to expect people to do the Nose in 8 hours but 3 days yes. Absolutely. Otherwise practice someplace where you are less of an obstruction.
If we can't use the rocks responsibly the park service isn't going to take us by the hand and show us how. Acting like they will is foolish.
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