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mikep_
Jan 5, 2006, 7:15 PM
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I have been told that there are 17 distinct steps in making a single aid placement. This would start with placing the piece, clipping a free 'biner, clipping the daisy, clipping aiders, testing, moving onto aider, etc.
Can anyone give me the (your) exact sequence for make an aid placement?
Good aid climbers have told me that efficient aid climbing becomes a rhythm so I would like to practice the sequence over and over to get it down.
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giza
Jan 5, 2006, 7:32 PM
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17 distinct steps?? It depends on the system and gear you're using but here's a starting point for you:
Joe's 11 steps:
1. step up HIGH.
2. look at the next crappy peice you are going to hang your sorry ass from
3. put a metal widget in it
4. clip a daisy to it.
5. bounce test it.
6. smoke a cigarette.
7. run up your aiders and fifi into the peice itself or the biner clipped to it.
8. sigh pathetically.
9. drink a king kobra/old english 800
10. unclip your daisy from the last peice and clip the rope into it. daisy whippers are the realm of the foole.
11. come to the realization that aid climbing is boring and not very sexy, sell your pins and start big wave surfing. or knitting.
For what it's worth you can check out Captain Peedon's Battered Way to Aiding here http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=4212&forum=19&10
But Joe pretty much sums it up.
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paganmonkeyboy
Jan 5, 2006, 7:47 PM
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I think step 6 should be something more generic, for those of us that have kicked the tobacco habit...:D
OP - Have you seen the aid sequence in Mountaineering - Freedom of the Hills ? You might take a look at that....and yes, practice practice practice...
I'm working on a little article about teaching oneself to aid climb - Let me share with you some of the precious tidbits, if I may :
1) anything that flys out of the rock (piton, hook, nut, whatever) is going to go straight for your face - nose and eyes. Keep this in mind at all times, and you will be reminded periodically...
2) bring a million biners, then two more for when you run out...
3) in the dark, sparks will fly off your pitons and look really cool. While you are enjoying this, that cam hook will pop (see 1, above)
4) that piece you just grabbed, while top stepping and all unbalanced, is the wrong one for the placement in front of you. The correct piece is the one you used three placements back...
good luck :-)
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climbhigher
Jan 5, 2006, 9:46 PM
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I am a big fan of Freedom of The Hills.
It feels great to feel that rhythm when it all clicks!!!!
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t-dog
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Jan 5, 2006, 9:58 PM
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17 steps on your aider??!?!?!
DANG!!!!! what are you clipping fixed gear with a ten foot pole or something?
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ammon
Jan 6, 2006, 3:12 AM
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Wow, 17 steps?
If I tried to analyze a 17 move sequence every time I made a placement I think it might take two days to finish the pitch, ha haa haa.
There is a lot of systems out there. As far as a sequence, well.... there are many, depending on the terrain you are climbing.
Here's a few things I teach to help you climb in a better rhythm.
Look up and try to read the rock if it looks fairly obvious. When you clip the lead line beneath you, immediately take the aider/daisy off and dock it onto the gear you need next.
Sometimes, I don't bother docking it at all. I'll first clip the gear I need on to the aider/daisy, unclip it and hold it in my hand, as I'm climbing the aider, I plug the peice in, clip the rope, dock and climb. (This takes practice and should only be used after you are already familiar with the process)
Test your gear well but quickly. Once you tested it well, think of it as an A1 placement. Climb that sucker and don't give it another thought. Think about the next placement instead. Watch that you don't leaver the gear out, however.
Don't hang out in your bottom steps. This happens a lot, it looks totally blank you end up hanging in your bottom steps trying to study the rock, to see what's next. Get your ass up there and fi in high. The closer you are to the placement the easier it's going to be to figure it out. Use your finger tips to feel the rock if it's not visible.
Cheers, Ammon
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sisko
Jan 7, 2006, 12:49 AM
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My primary advice would be to minimize the total number of placements you require for any given span- ANY WAY that you can accomplish that within reason is beneficial. Some of my favorites: using protection which enable high clipping = into a cable loop at the end of the piece (such as choosing C4's over older style Camalots, choosing Aliens and Metolius units over Tech Friends); becoming adept at standard hooking (easy for me as my last name is Hooks)and with Leeper cam hooks to allow passing some areas quickly and avoiding heading; and using tripod foot position while high in aiders to get much more stable and less tired.
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texplorer
Jan 9, 2006, 5:37 PM
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Ammon is a master but I would add a few words.
Start with just getting out there and trying it. Some still prefer fifi's, others like the adjustable daisys. Whatever your choice or sequence, the more experience you get the more efficient you'll become. When you can make it up pitches your next goal should be to get faster. Since most people learning to aid hope to eventually graduate to a bigwall you'll really want to work on speeding things up.
Once you have a system try to start eliminating or combining steps. There are lots of little tricks like leaving a few cams on your aiders or not fifi'ing in short on low angle terrain. Those little things you learn from experience and others will make you faster in the end. Good luck,
Tex
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ricardol
Jan 10, 2006, 7:24 PM
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my largest efficiency gain on lead was made when i switched from 4 aiders to 2 aiders.
-- it took a few pitches to get the new rythim dialed ..but once i got it -- it was nice.
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paganmonkeyboy
Jan 10, 2006, 7:36 PM
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In reply to: my largest efficiency gain on lead was made when i switched from 4 aiders to 2 aiders. -- it took a few pitches to get the new rythim dialed ..but once i got it -- it was nice.
just out of curiosity - are you using ladders or the traditional aider design ? I've been using 2 aiders, but I'm eyeballing a set of wall ladders from yates to see if they make it a little easier on me...
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skinner
Jan 11, 2006, 1:47 AM
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And here I always thought Aiding was one of the "6-step programs"
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tim
Jan 11, 2006, 2:10 AM
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In reply to: What are the 17 steps? I'm probably missing a few of them. No wonder I have no business contributing to the El Capitan In a Push thread.
heheheheh, you owe me a new keyboard, OE shot out of my nose.
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tim
Jan 11, 2006, 2:16 AM
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Hey Ammon,
do you use a fifi, yourself? Also, how do you get maximum mileage out of each placement when going sideways eg. under a roof?
I quit using a fifi and just started trying to force myself into the top step on every single placement after a quick violent bounce. But, that doesn't help much for traversing pitches, especially when bonking my helmet on a roof. Any sekrit strategies for getting more reach out of a traversing placement, especially crappy hooks and blades? There's got to be a better way...
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holdplease2
Jan 11, 2006, 2:16 AM
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***********************
step up HIGH.
2. look at the next crappy peice you are going to hang your sorry ass from
3. put a metal widget in it
4. clip a daisy to it.
5. bounce test it.
6. smoke a cigarette.
7. run up your aiders and fifi into the peice itself or the biner clipped to it.
8. sigh pathetically.
9. drink a king kobra/old english 800
***************************************
Substitute OE8 with Red Bull, and I climbed a whole wonderful route like this.
That hook looks pretty bad. 'Till you get on it. Then light your smoke. Then decide you have to pee. Then pee. Then find your red bull. Then enjoy the view.
Its all a matter of perspective.
And aid climbing is allllll about changing your perspective.
I love what ammon says about "feeling with your fingertips" when you can't find the placements. People who don't aid climb may not understand that sometimes you have no idea how you will get up a face because you can't see the placements, 'till suddenly (or not so suddenly, actually) you are at the top of it. Just like slab climbing. And the falls are just just like slab falls...totally surprising. Yer just outta there.
I think maybe the best practice for aid climbing is leading in tuoloumne. Or however the hell you spell it. :lol: <---I hate how that guy looks like he is jerking off.
17 steps? Maybe just go make something up, thats what everybody else does, that's why we all do it so differently. You never know till you try. No matter how many times you are told what to do.
-Kate.
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skinner
Jan 11, 2006, 9:15 AM
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In reply to: <---I hate how that guy looks like he is jerking off.
And I always thought that he just looked stupid. Now I have this thought in my head every time I see that thing.
I'll be sure not to use it in any of my posts now that I know what it really means!
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yetanotherdave
Jan 11, 2006, 4:10 PM
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In reply to: just out of curiosity - are you using ladders or the traditional aider design ? I've been using 2 aiders, but I'm eyeballing a set of wall ladders from yates to see if they make it a little easier on me... |
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paganmonkeyboy
Jan 11, 2006, 4:58 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: just out of curiosity - are you using ladders or the traditional aider design ? I've been using 2 aiders, but I'm eyeballing a set of wall ladders from yates to see if they make it a little easier on me... I can't speak for ricardo, but I just switched to a pair of yates wall ladders, and they are WAY nicer to use. A bit bulkier in the pack, but totally worth it...
yeah - that's my thought exactly. the only thing I might want to hold out for is fish making those russian aiders - I hear those are the shiz, but have never used them personally...
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ricardol
Jan 12, 2006, 5:52 PM
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i use ladders (yates)
soon i want to upgrade to their lighters (speed) ladders .. seems like they would weigh less ..
.. i also have a 3rd aider clipped to the back of my harness... i use a meolious emergency aider .. (really flimsy light, and packs up into a ball)
.. rarely gets used.
In reply to: In reply to: my largest efficiency gain on lead was made when i switched from 4 aiders to 2 aiders. -- it took a few pitches to get the new rythim dialed ..but once i got it -- it was nice. just out of curiosity - are you using ladders or the traditional aider design ? I've been using 2 aiders, but I'm eyeballing a set of wall ladders from yates to see if they make it a little easier on me... |
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brutusofwyde
Jan 12, 2006, 9:09 PM
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Hmmm. I use the 22-step aid placement system.
1) Dig the dirt, lichen, and grasses out of the crack.
2) Place piece. If leaving piece, have piece ready to clip rope in.
3) Tug on piece.
4) clip to piece with adjustable daisy and aid tree.
5) Bounce piece if it looks, well, iffy, while looking away.
6) When piece pops, bouncing off the top of helmet, return to step 1, this time wire brushing the placement, selecting a different piece, or selecting a new placement.
7) place new piece. if leaving piece, have piece ready to clip rope in.
8) tug on piece.
9) When piece pops, scraping first knuckles against the rock, cry in pain and beg for belayer to take over lead.
10) when belayer refuses, hack up mucous filled with lichen and dirt, and spit it out, after first warning belayer.
11) decide that this crack system isn't the way I want to go.
12) lower of last, shaky bodyweight piece, and look up at new crack system.
13) re-sort rack for new line.
14) eat lunch, use gatorade to rinse lichen, grass dirt and mucous from back of throat.
15) rappel 8 pitches.
16) Make dinner.
17) drink most of the beer.
18) pass out.
19) Get up.
20) eat breakfast.
21) jug back to the top of the fixed ropes.
22) D.C. al fine.
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ammon
Jan 13, 2006, 6:41 AM
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Some really good recommendations have been added. I’ve said this time and time again, just because a system works for one person, doesn’t mean it’s going to be right for another.
Every technique or system I recommend or talk about is the way I do it, that doesn’t mean it’s the best way for you.
Yep, I still use traditional daisies and a fi-fi hook. Most climbers that use an adjustable daisy, use a fi-fi, as well.
Ricardo said something about feeling a big change in rhythm after changing from four aider’s, to two. Well, I felt a huge change when I started using the Yates ladders. I no longer had to reach down to open up the loop on the step, get it down and you will know what I mean.
I tried the Russian aiders but feel about them as I do the adjustable daisy. It’s just one more buckle that you have to mess around with. I feel more comfortable keeping it simple and concentrate on moving up, rather than tinkering around with all these buckles.
Roofs? Stay low in your aiders. I remember having the Yates prototype speed ladders with only four steps in them. I had a real problem because I was always scrunched up. They're a little bit bulkier now, but worth every ounce/inch.
Go low in your aider so you can see what you’re going to need, get your piece out, climb a few steps and think of the biner you’re on as a bucket on a sport climb. Flag out there and place your gear, down step and test. It’s a tricky one.
Cheers!!
Haa haa, I really like BOW's and Kate's comments.... aarrrrghhh, good on ya.
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skinner
Jan 13, 2006, 1:38 PM
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In reply to: I tried the Russian aiders but feel about them as I do the adjustable daisy. It’s just one more buckle that you have to mess around with. I feel more comfortable keeping it simple and concentrate on moving up, rather than tinkering around with all these buckles.
I hear ya, and find it especially awkward when it's fuggin cold out.. but maybe that's cuz I'm wearing mitts :D
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dangle
Jan 16, 2006, 8:18 PM
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17 steps
SEVENTEEN STEPS????
Gwack amoli!
There's only 5 steps to taking a leak and I ocassionally STILL zip my pecker! (That's an aid climbing term) And we're not even talking trouser tracks. (That....isn't)
How the phuque did I get up so many aid climbs?
OK here's the absolute best system for all aid routes;
Sucker! Gotcha!
There IS no absolute best system! No cookbook formula. Ultimately the most important piece of aid equipment is that sqwishy grey thing between your ears. You know, that organ that so many people act as if it causes pain to use.
Personally I think using it is fun and rejuvenating, but what the hell do I know, doddering senior citizen, mumble mumble...(wheeze, hawk, spit)
Back to cases; I hate Fifi. She's so needy, always hanging from my swami and grabbing everything she can get her sweaty little hooks on. There's really only one thing she's any good at and that is remote release (or possibly those funky retro rigid tree steppers' attachment which would make it less remote).
Daisies? Well didn't Val say "You're a daisy if you do."?
For me procedure and gear is dictated by terrain.
A few simple moves can be done with shoulder slings, more sustained but straightforward, two aiders no subaiders. Steeper? Carry a spare. Awkward or expanding or dicey? NOW get the daisies online.
I feel comfortable enough in top steps T-ing off to just go right there before choosing a piece (from a WELL organized rack) even if not mandated by reach but instead because of the placement viewing feedback advantage.
Here's a trademark trick; from a cop store get one of those little adjustable mirrors with the telescoping handle and practise topstepping while using a hold with one hand to lean and placing an erstwhile blind piece by holding both IT and the mirror with the other hand.
Actually seeing a placement once again gives a feedback advantage.
After a while you'll find all kinds of uses for those cop mirrors...
If you're going up then don't be a chickenshit. Be a humanshit and topstep.
If you're going another way, like roofs and traverses then you should...use your sqwishy grey thing.
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texplorer
Feb 3, 2006, 8:12 AM
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AAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The best way sail up the vertical seas is to turn yourself loose.
In other words. . . stop talking so much and just go do it. Ammon and others didn't get to be aid masters by hypothesizing in online forums.
Most importantly, have fun, drink a few old E's, and make a few memories.
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