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booger
Jan 13, 2006, 2:36 PM
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So my job is one of those standard office-peon-slave-type dealies but hey... it pays the climbing bills and it got my butt to Europe so I can't complain about it.
But I CAN complain about the Ladies in my office. Topics of conversation covered number: 1. shoes 2. hair 3. boys. I have slowly been excluded from these conversations over the past year as it became obvious that 1. my jeans-and-hiking-boots ensemble was a daily matter and not something to be trifled with in jokes 2. I have no idea who (famous fashion designer) is or why his shoes are hot (has that slab been in the sun all day? :? ).
Now I'm not saying I have to talk about climbing and hiking... I understand that I (along with a lot of you, probably) will always be just a teensy bit pariah-ed for enjoying ( :shock: ) dirt, sweat, pissing in the woods, etc. But for cryin' we are living in Brussels... you know, capitol of the EU, HQ of NATO, European Commission... all that good stuff. Driving distance from 4 countries in 2 hours each. And still... shoes, hair, boys. :roll: :roll:
I spend 40+ hours with these girls. It would be nice if I could have a conversation. Does this drive anyone else nuts? Or should I just shut up and get myself a copy of Madame... or Elle... whatever it's called?
... sorry... I feel a bit better now... anyone care to share their rant? :?
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granite_grrl
Jan 13, 2006, 2:49 PM
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I'm in a male dominated enviroment while I'm at work. The girls that can drive me crazy are my two sisters. While the two apart aren't bad, when they're combined it seems that they supply an endless stream of fasion critique. Hanging out with them I find out what's hot, and what's not....and heaven forbid that I mention that one of the hot trends is fantasticly stupid (it is my personal belief that plummers crack from low risers is not sexy, and that a winter coat should keep you warm....crazy, I know).
But in general I'm hanging out with girls who'll throw on a warm fleece/down jacket while wearing heels and love their Chaco sandles even if they don't match their outfit.
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angelaa
Jan 13, 2006, 3:45 PM
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I guess we 'outdoorsy types' need a support group!
hell I guess that's what the Ladies Room is supposed to be :D
I deal with this all the time - required to dress up at work so no one knows what I am really like. . . until its 3 below and out comes the big - bright yellow - puffy down jacket! Boy does that get looks!!
I think the only shoes I have that match that are my blue mountaineering boots! :lol:
When ever I get together with my sister and her friends, I always feel like there is something really wrong with me and that I am not a real girl! They are all pretty and sparkly and I CANNOT do sparkle - hell I won't even curl my hair!! I always feel like I am being looked at like 'whats wrong with her' or everyone thinks I'm a 'hippy' - well if 'hippy' is anything that doesn't were sparkles . . I'm IN!!
Wish there were more like us or at least wish I were closer to my girlfriends who are just like me !!!
Miss you SuperFlea!!
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snoangel
Jan 13, 2006, 5:23 PM
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Today's outfit: jeans, tennis shoes, camo hoodie, ponytail, no make-up
Most day's outfit: capris, sandals, comfy shirt, ponytail, no make-up
I'm pretty lucky that most people in my office dress casually...perhaps it's the SoCal beach influence where flip flops can be worn most anywhere, anytime of the year. And while I may be one of the most active women in my office, I work with a lot of active women...one is an avid horseback rider, another a volleyball player, another travels everywhere.
There is this one girl, however, who I overhear every now and then (my cubicle is right by the breakroom). All she ever talks about is hair, boys and how she could never imagine working out! Needless to say, she & I don't talk. :wink:
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tradchick
Jan 13, 2006, 5:40 PM
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I work at a conservative bank in the northeast and totally don't fit in. I'm the only athletic person in the bank and while all the women are having candle and kitchen parties, I'm out climbing or skiing or biking.
Not only that but I'm from a large urban city so they think my clothes are out there and the music I listen to just as bizarre. What really puts them over the edge though, is my clothes size is a singe digit and they could wear my tent.
I just ignore them and go ride my bike at lunch.
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trb
Jan 13, 2006, 5:51 PM
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I totally feel everyone's pain! I am frustrated daily with the people I work with who like to talk about things like "did you see that woman with the horrendous shoes!" or " that woman is so fat she needs help". Geez! What do I care if someone wears an ugly outfit...I don't even notice! :roll:
Or how about the guys you work with that only have one thing to talk about - sports. I have nothing against sports but I don't really care about who's having an affair or that comment that a player said to the press the other day...who cares! i say stir up some trouble yourself if you like it that much!
:idea: I like this quote from Eleanor roosevelt "...great minds discuss ideas: average minds discuss events: small minds discuss people...." Not saying i'm perfect (rank around average-with an occasional great :?: ) but to talk about people all of the time is a waste of time and energy!
It's so nice to escape with my friends who enjoy the outdoors and can compare stories of adventure! 8^)
whew...I feel better thanks for the vent :D :righton:
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acacongua
Jan 13, 2006, 6:05 PM
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Yes, if you want to bond with these women, then by all means find ways to build rapport with them or you alienate yourself. Sometimes we climbers do have to step back into the real world. Maybe they're interested in you too.
BTW, what does the nature of their conversation have to do with being "pretaaaay"?
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acacongua
Jan 13, 2006, 6:07 PM
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In reply to: I totally feel everyone's pain! I am frustrated daily with the people I work with who like to talk about things like "did you see that woman with the horrendous shoes!" or " that woman is so fat she needs help". Geez! What do I care if someone wears an ugly outfit...I don't even notice! :roll:
Per my previous advice, don't bond in that manner that you step back into high school and thus, a scene from Mean Girls.
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marionk
Jan 13, 2006, 6:29 PM
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There has to be common ground somewhere. :wink: Try bringing in pics of your recent adventures and asking if anyone knows how to scrapbook. Yes, it's a candle-party kind of a thing, but it's *something*.
As long as you consider yourself to be above them, they'll never be your friends. You can't have it both ways.
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blonde_loves_bolts
Jan 13, 2006, 6:46 PM
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Gotta love casual Fridays! I'm in my standard jeans, flip flops, and one of 10 fleeces I own. Normally it's collared shirts and suit pants.
I don't have a lot in common with the women I work with; however, I work in a small office where everyone ends up doing work that is not included in their job description. So even though we might not have a lot to relate on a personal level, we all find or invent common ground that keeps everyone in a positive environment. What's funny is that all the attorneys here are male, but all but one of the legal assistants are female. Still, it's a surprisingly relaxed environment. When we stress out, we all stress out, but everyone is basically on the same level playing field.
I forgot where that was going. But I believe that even the seemingly coldest women can be warmed up to, even if it means talking in terms of work and nothing else.
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comet
Jan 13, 2006, 6:47 PM
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Or maybe they're just not your kind of people, and that's okay. No need to be best friends with everybody.
My female friends from high school have gotten far more into fashion, makeup, etc. than they were when I saw them every day. I love those women, in spite of not always understanding why they prioritize what they do, and they're always interested in hearing about climbing (or whatever else I've been doing that they'd probably never try themselves).
Few people are truly one-dimensional, and I value my friendship with these particular women because of the history I have with them, the fact that they make me laugh, and the genuine concern and interest they express.
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snoangel
Jan 13, 2006, 7:28 PM
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In reply to: :idea: I like this quote from Eleanor roosevelt "...great minds discuss ideas: average minds discuss events: small minds discuss people...."
I love that quote!
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macherry
Jan 13, 2006, 10:16 PM
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In reply to: Or maybe they're just not your kind of people, and that's okay. No need to be best friends with everybody. My female friends from high school have gotten far more into fashion, makeup, etc. than they were when I saw them every day. I love those women, in spite of not always understanding why they prioritize what they do, and they're always interested in hearing about climbing (or whatever else I've been doing that they'd probably never try themselves). Few people are truly one-dimensional, and I value my friendship with these particular women because of the history I have with them, the fact that they make me laugh, and the genuine concern and interest they express.
if i could give a trophy i would. I'm in agreement. One of my best friends from my home town is a total shopping kind of gal, into home decorating and not at all athletic, but we share so much other stuff like kids, family and friends, that when we get together our different lifestyles aren't an issue.
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nola_angie
Jan 14, 2006, 1:28 AM
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It's hard when the girly girls treat you like a pariah, but really- how much can be gained from the interaction anyhow?
I've been lucky enough to know a few girls that can talk fashion then flip to conservation matters in a matter of seconds. *those* are the keepers. I had this one girlfriend- she wore swirly skirts, talked about not much more than her boyfriend (but occasionally started in with feminist ideals and policy...) but lemmie tell you- I call her in a panic when I have a date, and 45 min. later, I have an outfit, accessories AND hair! It's good to mix it up.
But yes, you have to cut the super shallow ones loose, and really- pity them. It's a crippling place to be when your brain is so full of Brad Pitt, Bebe's new line and the most recent of insecurity inspired issues with the boyfriend!
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clausti
Jan 14, 2006, 5:11 AM
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Most of the time, if I'm not friends with those girls, its at least partially because I envy them.
I am capable of looking smokin' hot by dressing for my body, but I will never be trendy, because I am not capable of following a trend. My sister and I can walk through a store at the mall, and I'll come up with *nothing* while she'll have an armload of stuff that she likes. And most of it looks awesome, but its nothing I would ever pick out for myself.
I am not capable of looking immaculate every day. I can not afford to update my wardrobe weekly. I am incompetant to apply the latest makeup and baffled by trends. like, shearling boots with miniskirts.
Often, though, if we're lab partners or even just working together and having a conversation, you find out their normal human beings. they just picked different things to devote their energy to. I am just as shoe-obsessed as them, but my concern is heel-hooking not chunky vs. spike. I'm just as boy obsessed, but mine is the local cyclist not the local frat boy. I am just as concerned about my hair, but shiiit, my hair is my art. a girl's gott have something.
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maculated
Jan 14, 2006, 6:58 AM
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Seems to me if you're looking down your nose at "others," on some level you're envying them. Because, in all reality, if you really were superior to them, it wouldn't matter to you what they talked about or looked like.
The college I teach at is a pretty rich one. The women students I have have the latest fashions, are all thinner than me, have beautiful hair and accessories, etc. Most of them come into my classroom looking like ditzes or blonde bimbos but impress me with their minds. Women bond by talking about themselves - or others - in general. You have no idea the things those cute little hairdos are hiding.
When I stand up in front of my class, I probably look like a teacher in my khakis and argyle sweaters with pony tails, no make up, and chalk all over me. They think I'm crazy and spazzy, but it's really my persona - my class is laughing and engaged and they think I'm a kook, but I know it keeps their interest. I could go into a situation and be what they expect of me, but I'm happy to look silly if that's what needs to happen. I don't envy those girls in my class who can't or won't do that yet because they make themselves up to please the people whose world they live in.
The world I live in thinks I'm smokin' hot when I'm covered with mud and have mussed up, slightly oily hair - men and women alike. I get teased when I see climbing partners on campus and I'm in a skirt and heels. But. the fact is, I'm smokin' hot in all scenarios in my head so what do I have to worry about people my age with their nails done and professional dye jobs? What makes you worry so?
You pariah yourself. Two of my best girl friends in town are GIRLY. Both delight in shopping and shoes and Sex and the City. We go and see movies like "Bridget Jones" when I would NEVER do that of my own volition. I was once told by one of them I was the worst dressed person they knew - I'm not trendy. But the fact is, they admire me. Both of them introduce me to strangers and talk about my climbing or my dog training or my kooky stuff that makes me different. And generally I get a captive audience, questions, and admiration: "I could NEVER do that!"
Just as you look at those girls and think, "Shoes? Lame!" They think, "Climbing? Lame!" If you open your mind, they will probably open theirs.
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4togo
Jan 14, 2006, 8:41 AM
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Great post, Mac. Our real identities come from within and sometimes it's very interesting -- and useful -- to see how we're perceived by the outside world. I recently learned two new terms that may be appropriate here: 'internal locus of motivation' and 'external locus of motivation'. Going too far in either direction can be a problem; having a healthy balance is a powerful thing, and knowing it... is priceless.
I also think that what we're talking about differences in cultural values. Funny that sometimes we're more tolerant of new/different ideas because they come from far afield than we are of new ideas that originate a little too close to home for comfort.
I had a recent conversation about makeup with a lady in her late 60s who explained that she has never been comfortable enough in her own skin to go unadorned (make-up, jewelry, etc). It surprised me and made me feel a little sad for her. There's a point at which social conditioning becomes a choice... but I think some of us never even know the choice is there to be made.
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alexis_86
Jan 14, 2006, 5:49 PM
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I have to admit, I do like nice clothes. I love leather heels, shirts with french cuffs and tailored skirts. But I do not have the body, looks or patience to be trendy. And while I enjoy my clothes, they do not occupy my entire brain. I'd rather fork over ten bucks to join a climbing competition for the event shirt and a chance to hang out with other climbers and have fun competing, than to hand over two hundred bucks to salvatore whatshisface for a pair of shoes or a dress or whatever. It is rather sad that most girls I've come across can be terribly one dimensional, only caring about shoes, clothes, boys and jobs that'll earn them lots of money. However, having said that, one of my best and oldest girlfriends is an absolute girlie girl right down to the dressing up, shoes and manicures but I can still talk about literature and feminism to her and she's a political science major, beauty and brains are all there. And while girls who behave like bimbos annoy me, after a year of studying feminist lit theory, I have deduced that the whole point of the feminist movement is not for all women to become masculine ball breakers but for women to be able to make the choices they want without being criticised for it. So if these girls want to appear shallow and uninformed and enjoy doing so, well, let them, it's their lives to live. So there's the social conditioning part of it, but that's a whole thesis in itself.
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flashalee
Jan 14, 2006, 6:01 PM
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I guess I am the girl that tries to bridge the gap. I can go from glam to sweat-covered she-warrior in 3 min flat. The funny thing is...most of my friends have been the same way. How we find each other, I don't know, but I feel fortunate and lucky.
Keep looking, you never know when that girlie girl will be spotted on the weekend covered in sweat and scratches! ;)
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rvega
Jan 15, 2006, 8:45 PM
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[quote="maculated"]The women students I have have the latest fashions, are all thinner than me, have beautiful hair and accessories, etc. Most of them come into my classroom looking like ditzes or blonde bimbos but impress me with their minds. Women bond by talking about themselves - or others - in general. You have no idea the things those cute little hairdos are hiding.
When I stand up in front of my class, I probably look like a teacher in my khakis and argyle sweaters with pony tails, no make up, and chalk all over me. They think I'm crazy and spazzy, but it's really my persona - my class is laughing and engaged and they think I'm a kook, but I know it keeps their interest. I could go into a situation and be what they expect of me, but I'm happy to look silly if that's what needs to happen. I don't envy those girls in my class who can't or won't do that yet because they make themselves up to please the people whose world they live in.
You pariah yourself. quote]
Awesome post Mac. This is so me too.
I work at San Diego State now and most of my students look like they all spent at least an hour getting ready and haven't digested anything in days. I consider dressing up brushing my hair and putting lotion on. They must think me a total loss as far as fashion goes too. And many of them outwardly seem only interested in boys and the latest Vogue magazine but many of those same girls are smart, thoughtful, and interested in others things besides what there exteriors may suggest.
If you engage your coworkers I bet you'd be suprised in their depth. And I have many women friends who have no interest in science, climbing, surfing, or politics like I do, but I find their company and friendship enjoyable, different, and worthwhile. :)
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happiegrrrl
Jan 16, 2006, 6:27 PM
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....or you could just happen to leave a climbing magazine open on your desk while you jet off to the loo(during your lunch break, of course; can't be caught goofing off at work....).
A magazine left open to a full-color, full-page incredible photo of a deee-ish-us climbing guy, sans shirt, muscles ripping, luscious hair and dangling as he works his way up an overhanging line.....if you can get one with the harness booty shot, all the better....
And when you come back in, and they are a bit aflutter, but have the sense to "inquire" about such men, you can toss your pony-tailed hair, smirk and coyly quip "Oh, yeah. He's really a nice guy in person." or "Yeah, climbing guys are really hot. And treat women with respect to....well, at least the ones who climb hard." or some other little gem.
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lhwang
Jan 16, 2006, 7:56 PM
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Interesting how people often feel compelled to judge or make assumptions about people with different values/lifestyles. Our individual perspectives are all tainted by the bias of our past history and experiences. Sure, the gals who seem obsessed with landing a rich guy may seem one-dimensional to you, but do they really have a significant impact on your life? It may be that's what they need to be happy, and everyone has the right to pursue happiness.
I know I'm more than a "type". I'm not just an "outdoorsy type" or a "girly girl". On Saturday, I was wearing a skirt suit, sheer black stockings, high heels and diamond earrings, and discussing the future of Canadian health care with colleagues. On Sunday, I was wearing gortex pants, mountaineering boots and swinging ice axes (while still wearing the diamond earrings, of course). I hear from people all the time "I didn't think you were the type". That's right, because I'm not just a type.
We all use stereotypes to simplify the world, but it's a shame when there's so much diversity out there.
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rmsusa
Jan 17, 2006, 1:06 AM
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<<>>
I'll second that. In fact I'll take it a bit farther:
As long as you consider yourself to be above them, you'll really be below them.
EVERYBODY deserves respect.
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acacongua
Jan 17, 2006, 6:52 PM
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very awesome post, maculated.
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booger
Jan 18, 2006, 12:18 PM
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Mac, girls,
Let me express my frustration more clearly. It has nothing to do with feeling better than anyone else, or looking down my nose at anyone. It does have to do with a feeling of alienation and I don't think the solutions you gals have presented are as easy as you are making them sound... or perhaps they are easy for you, but not for me. Further, I don't think it is the case that people necessarily pariah themselves. Remember high school? How many girls in high school who are pariahed have sought it out?
My main beef with my environment is not that I feel these women are beneath me in any way - it is that I have sought out different topics of conversation with these women- literature, art, politics, and all on a general relationship-building level. However, those attempts have been rejected because the foundation of relationships in this particular environment is based on one's capability to discuss the aforementioned clothes, etc. I have tried, but I am simply unqualified to build relationships based upon discussions of those things. It may seem that since we are all out of high school, these issues shouldn't present themselves any longer; however, in an all-female work environment, women can sometimes be just as ruthless as they were in 9th grade.
Also, I will note that two very interesting posts came from women in academia (teachers). Theoretically - that is, on paper, I would agree with most of both arguments regarding women's bonding rituals, the quality of their minds and their willingness to express their intelligence through varied discourse. However, having left an intense academic environment (also English Literature) for the business world - I submit that your environments and the women you are around (thus, they way you can bond with them) are rather insular (you are lucky). It's not so easy when you are competing with those women for raises. Sides are taken, lines are drawn and if you are not in the 'inner circle', you are definitely going to feel it- regardless of how someone may respect you/your work empirically.
Hope that makes a bit more sense. Thank you all for your input - this is very interesting for me!!
Taz
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