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microbarn
Jan 16, 2006, 6:34 PM
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Is anyone aware of an issue with using an ascender as a belay device for a second or top roping?
I know an italian hitch is a quick easy back up belay device, but it seemed as though the ascender could be a good alternative too.
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brianinslc
Jan 16, 2006, 6:52 PM
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In reply to: Is anyone aware of an issue with using an ascender as a belay device for a second or top roping? I know an italian hitch is a quick easy back up belay device, but it seemed as though the ascender could be a good alternative too.
And...you'd lower them...how?
Pretty rare that folks wouldn't have a belay device. And, if not, then your munter hitch would be the preferred way to go, rather than an ascender. Unless, of course, your standard ascender is a gri gri.
Also, I wonder about the strength rating on some ascenders, and being able to "soft catch" someone, rope wear with rapid teeth loading. I can imagine the same issues that soloing or self belaying with an ascender produce.
Bad idea jeans.
-Brian in SLC
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microbarn
Jan 16, 2006, 6:55 PM
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In reply to: And...you'd lower them...how?
Thanks for the reply
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timstich
Jan 16, 2006, 7:02 PM
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The Munter hitch is the way to go if you have no belaying device. It will work on just about any locking carabiner. A clove hitch on a locker is the simplest self-belay for leading.
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skinner
Jan 16, 2006, 7:26 PM
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I know I will hear all sorts of comments on this but.. oh well
You just put a belay device or descender on the tail of the rope. Yank up enough to release the ascender and lower away. We do it sometimes especially on tedious aid routes where a lot of fiddle-farking is involved in cleaning. Instead of holding the second constantly, take up the slack through the ascender, back it up with a hitch on a separate biner on the anchor. Then you are free to sort gear, ropes, or haul between periods when the second is moving.
It's not something I do all the time, and I use my z-tooth ascender that has a minimal effect on the rope. It's just body weight, and I have released it even with a gear laden heavy-weight on it without a problem.
You should be capable of unweighting a rope in any situation should the need arise. Worst case scenario, use pussiks and a pulley (or revolver) or two.
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healyje
Jan 16, 2006, 7:34 PM
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I'd just give a no-device, hip belay before introducing an ascender into a TR belay setup...
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glyrocks
Jan 16, 2006, 7:44 PM
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Skinner-
So you're just using the ascender to hold body weight while your partner cleans? Then the loose tail is threaded through a belay device?
Why not use a gri-gri? It locks, holds body weight fine, quick and easy to lower, and you could easily back it up with an overhand on a bight or something that would jam if the cam slipped. Seems easier, but maybe I'm missing some other reason.
to the OP:
I think it would be a pain in the ass, and if you didn't keep up there could be enough impact to tear the sheath, depending on what ascender you're using. Seems like there are too many other easier and safer choices.
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skinner
Jan 16, 2006, 7:45 PM
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In reply to: I'd just give a no-device, hip belay before introducing an ascender into a TR belay setup...
Absolutely.
You are right in that respect, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who doesn't have a lot experience with the gear, and hopefully I was misunderstood in the fact that I was pointing out that it can be, and is done.
I'm not alone with this as I learned it from one of the most accomplished aid climbers in this area.
And I agree that everyone should learn to hip belay first. It's hard to imagine that there are possibly people out that that have never belayed with anything other then a device?
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angusmacginny
Jan 16, 2006, 7:54 PM
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There is absolutely no reason to ever do this. Use a munter. End of discussion. An ascender can damage the rope in a fall. I have a terrible memory and forget my belay device all the time, and a munter works great.
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skinner
Jan 16, 2006, 7:57 PM
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In reply to: Skinner- Why not use a gri-gri? .
because you can rig an ascender with a multi-directional anchor and it's basically a one hand pull to take up the slack, much easier to handle then a Gri-Gri. I love Gri-Gri's too and use then for all sorts of applications
In reply to: to the OP: I think it would be a pain in the ass, and if you didn't keep up there could be enough impact to tear the sheath, depending on what ascender you're using. Seems like there are too many other easier and safer choices.
As I said.. "when cleaning tedious aid" keeping up is not a problem, however staying awake sometime is.
To All: I am not suggesting anyone do this, I was merely responding to the question "Is anyone aware of" and commenting on the "How do you lower".
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namoclimber
Jan 16, 2006, 8:23 PM
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I probably wont here the end of this but.
Sometimes when i cant find a climbing partner, and I'm jonesing for some outside action. I`ll rap off the top of something and set up a static single top rope. Weight it at the bottom and hook in via a crawl (ascender without handle) and back it up with a presik above the device, and then, just climb.
It feeds pretty smooth never really have to feed it yourself. you get to the top and hook in with a daisy chain hook up your gri gri or whatever and lower.
works good never had any problems with it.
doesnt work on really over hanging stuff but it does the job on most vertical and slight over hangs.
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glyrocks
Jan 16, 2006, 9:12 PM
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In reply to: because you can rig an ascender with a multi-directional anchor and it's basically a one hand pull to take up the slack
Cool, makes sense. When the OP mentioned TR, I got stuck on belaying in a TR set-up from below.
I'd like to reiterate not using an ascender for free-climbing/belaying. Learn how hip-belay and tie a munter.
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kydd76
Jan 16, 2006, 9:17 PM
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In reply to: I'd just give a no-device, hip belay before introducing an ascender into a TR belay setup... |
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kydd76
Jan 16, 2006, 9:50 PM
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In reply to: Sometimes when i cant find a climbing partner, and I'm jonesing for some outside action. I`ll rap off the top of something and set up a static single top rope. Weight it at the bottom and hook in via a crawl (ascender without handle) and back it up with a presik above the device, and then, just climb. |
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salamanizer
Jan 18, 2006, 3:39 AM
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In reply to: We do it sometimes especially on tedious aid routes where a lot of fiddle-farking is involved in cleaning. Instead of holding the second constantly, take up the slack through the ascender, back it up with a hitch on a separate biner on the anchor. Then you are free to sort gear, ropes, or haul between periods when the second is moving.
OK, I'm missing something. Why would you be belaying your second on an aid route. Wouldn't it be easier to fix the rope an let him jug the damn thing and clean on his own time while you're hauling the pig? Hauling is bad enough, but belaying too.....screw that.
As for the OP, sounds like a bunch of B.S. to me. There are better ways.
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oldsalt
Jan 18, 2006, 5:21 AM
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In reply to: I know I will hear all sorts of comments on this but.. oh well ... You should be capable of unweighting a rope in any situation should the need arise. Worst case scenario, use pussiks and a pulley (or revolver) (my italics) or two.
If you need a belay device and you have a revolver, just show it to some other sap and take his ATC. What's the big deal?
I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist. :twisted:
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