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cfnubbler
Jan 16, 2006, 8:31 PM
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I'll put in a plug for the Adirondacks. Beware the infamous "+" grades! There are literally dozens 5.9+ and 5.10+ routes that won't be downgraded anytime soon, lol.
After having climbed at many of the locations mentioned earlier, the 'Dacks are the stiffest place I've been. Certainly more so than the Valley or J-Tree, for example. I'd call them comparable to Granite Mountain. Never been to Woodson, though.
-Nubbler
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organic
Jan 16, 2006, 8:44 PM
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Devil's Lake undoubtedly
People say Joshua Tree is sandbagged but more like polished and with broken holds. Even when I was there holds were crumbling but who is going to ever bother to change the grades on these "classics", trad and bouldering. Devil's Lake doesn't break.
People also say Moore's Wall in NC is old school and sandbagged but it did not even compare to Devil's Lake.
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caughtinside
Jan 16, 2006, 8:53 PM
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Hmm, I climbed with some devils lake climbers in Josh who pretty much got spanked. On the face climbs. They couldn't crack climb at all. I think they left and went to New Jack, and loved that place.
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lowercase24
Jan 16, 2006, 9:25 PM
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Index, Washington and the friendly VW in Seattle. Ahhh home sweet home
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virginia_alpinist
Jan 16, 2006, 9:42 PM
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Seneca for anything 5.7 and above "feels" 2 full grades harder. I recently moved from VA (where Seneca was my local TRAD crag) and the .10's there are .VHARD. I have onsighted every .10 in CO since moving here last July (sport & trad .10a to 10d..). I NEVER was able to lead a SINGLE .10 at Seneca. The .9's there are pretty stiff but I could always get up them..even if I had to hang dog etc...
Having climbed there since the early 70's I can kind-of "explain" this. The locals up until the late 80's really believed in the fact that ".10 was the hardest" grade and they have really stuck to there guns...
So, beware when climbing there... It's an awsome place..Where can you climb REALLY exposed 5.2 and as a .10 climber get that "scary" feel? Only at Seneca (and maybe on a few Gunks routes..)
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crazyscuba
Jan 16, 2006, 10:13 PM
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In reply to: Hmm, I climbed with some devils lake climbers in Josh who pretty much got spanked. On the face climbs. They couldn't crack climb at all. I think they left and went to New Jack, and loved that place.
obviously it all depends on what type of background you grew up climbing in but when i went to josh it seemed fairly normal to other areas out west. grainy slabs were everywhere and it takes a little bit of practice to get used to that. as was said before, we dont really smear a whole lot at devils lake and there are very few slabs to mess around on.
here is something for you to chew on though. lynn hill came here once for a few days and got absolutely shut down on many of the 5.12 topropes that were set up.
after climbing in yosemite, josh, and tuolumne(3 of the "most sandbagged" areas out west) i'm confident is saying that the lake is more sandbagged than any of those areas. obviously they are way different styles of climbing so ratings are going to be vague and controversial.
steve
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fishbelly
Jan 16, 2006, 10:42 PM
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Seneca Rock in general
More specific North Peak West Face
Shaffer Rock
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jsj42
Jan 17, 2006, 12:16 AM
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In reply to: Now JTree, that felt sandbagged. Also, some of the face climbing in Eldo feels a little stiff, while the cracks seemed a little soft. Again, different style. Red Rocks is notoriously soft for single pitch sport... Fingers in a Lightsocket has a bonafide 5.12 crux just before the anchors, and its supposedly 5.11. I couldn't send on lead.
I agree that J Tree feels sandbagged. However, I think that Eldo is categorically right on with grades -- people say it's sandbagged but I strongly believe that there are a *handful* of sandbagged climbs but in general it is right on.
I think I may be one of the few that thinks Red Rocks isn't soft for the grade. But I've mostly done trad there.
I have to *strongly* disagree with the comment on Fingers in a Lightsocket. I think the crux is like a 5.11b (maybe c) move, it's just that it comes after 50 feet of 5.11a climbing. I've onsighted many 5.12's at the Creek, and I can't say that of any other area I've been to.
The Gunks... Having done a fair amount of climbing there I'd say this: the 5.10 grade is more often than not sandbagged. I find that grades seem legit up through 5.9, but you can do 5.10a's that feel 5.11a. Interestingly, I feel that the 5.11 grade at the Gunks is less sandbagged... I think that once things get that hard there seems to be less inflation going on.
Hands down biggest sandbagging I've experienced has been 5.10, 5.11, and 5.12 at Seneca. When I first went to Seneca I would almost always onsight easy 5.11 trad -- even after a few months of adjustment, I felt like it was a significant accomplishment to onsight 5.10 there. Part of this is that the gear is often so thin at that grade -- on redpoint attempts the grades felt a *little* more in line...
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moeman
Jan 17, 2006, 12:19 AM
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The grades at Seneca have become a little softer, but are still on the sandbag end of the spectrum. A lot of 9s and 10s have been re-graded. Example: former Sencea "5.9's" Castor and Pollux are now both 10a. Still, the grades are stiff, and even 5.7 can be hard and intimidating.
The reason seneca grades are stiffer is largely due to the character of the routes. Climbing tends to be sustained, with lots of exposure and occaisonally tricky routefinding, protection, and funky moves. But you will not find moves that are out of line with the grade; a 5.8 routte will not have moves harder than 5.7-5.8. It makes the routes intimidating but a lot of fun (once you get used to them).
Remember, Seneca isn't sandbagged- everywhere else is just soft.
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socrate
Jan 17, 2006, 12:37 AM
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Hey I'll definitely double and triple the Adirondacks sandbags. Look for any Henry Barber route and it's a sandbag. Beautiful but a sandbag. Also look out for all those 5.9+ and 5.10+. Definitively sandbags.
I believe as was said earlier that most older crags are graded more stiffly.
Here is a funny opinion on eastern grades...
Also out in the northeast climbers had big egos. they had to prove they were as good as the western climbers. So they machoed their grads up. The motto was probably I can't climb high but I'll climb hard.
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kalcario
Jan 17, 2006, 12:48 AM
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Hardest grades where the routes are actually hard? Virgin River Gorge.
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up_for_a_good_time
Jan 19, 2006, 8:09 PM
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Seneca, in my opinion, is the sandiest bag around and especially on the east coast. Imagine yourself on a "classic" a few hundred feet up on a vertical wall completely exposed...no, i mean like COMPLETELY EXPOSED...with no ledge in sight and having to traverse right and up to a hanging belay. Set up your belay and repeat. Welcome to the Seneca Rocks 5.7 classic entitled "Ecstacy". True West Virginian exposure. Bagged sand everywhere.
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camhead
Jan 19, 2006, 9:05 PM
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I just noticed that nobody has mentioned Smith Rock. Its trad grades feel right on to me, but it has some of the stiffest 5.10 sport routes on the continent.
Historically, I think it shows the delflation of sport grades over the past twenty years, especially in the 5.10-5.12a range. It was bolted back before sport was either safe or easy. heh.
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pbjosh
Jan 19, 2006, 9:06 PM
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I didn't find either VRG or Rifle to be stiff grade-wise.
Overall Woodson gets my vote.
Paradise Forks has pretty rough grades as well in my limited experience there.
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alex234
Jan 19, 2006, 9:13 PM
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In reply to: I'm going to have to say that the Northeast has a lot of sandbagged routes, the Gunks and Ragged Mountain come to mind. Maybe it's because there are 5.8's that were put up in the 30's at Ragged Mountain.
would have to agree that the gunks and ragged have some pritty sandbagged routes. ragged has some pritty tough 5.8s and the gunks has some breathtaking exposure which generally makes the routes feel harder. would also agree that some gunks climbs seem to feel 2 grades harder.
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edge
Jan 19, 2006, 10:01 PM
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In reply to: after climbing in yosemite...(3 of the "most sandbagged" areas out west)
There is no way in hell that anyone could call Yosemite grades sandbagged.
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crazyscuba
Jan 19, 2006, 10:15 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: after climbing in yosemite...(3 of the "most sandbagged" areas out west) There is no way in hell that anyone could call Yosemite grades sandbagged.
yes there is and people still do. i disagree with it but it regularly comes up in coversations about sandbagging. i personally found that the ratings were almost identical to joshua tree and were neither sandbagged or featherbagged.
steve
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soulsurfer
Jan 19, 2006, 10:32 PM
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So then once we find that almost all major climbing areas are sand bagged then what?
I personally feel places like J-tree and Tahquitz are rated just fine. And considering Tahquitz is where the rating system came from it would be tough to say it is sandbagged right?
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claramie
Jan 19, 2006, 10:37 PM
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I think that this depends on your style some. For me, power endurance is the hardest and consequently, many climbs at Red River Gorge are tough. That's not to say that RRG is sandbagged though.
I hear that VRG is sandbagged. The couple of climbs that I got on at Devil's Lake, WI (yes, WI, don't laugh) were hard for the grade.
Some climbs at Jack's Canyon (AZ) are soft, while others are right on.
I'll agree with the previously mentioned, old school routes are hard.
CL
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hasbeen
Jan 19, 2006, 10:52 PM
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Owl Tor, no question. Sure, sure, few have climbed there. Fewer have actually redpointed anything. The warm-up doesn't even have a female ascent, and some pretty good climbers (5.14) have been there. It probably helps that the main activist is freakishly strong and doesn't really climb anywhere else so that he still rates things based on, say, how hard Death Tongue felt to him in 1989.
Second: Elbsenstein (sp), Germany. Forget the scary factor, which is high, just try and toprope. I've seen 5.14 climbers max out at 7a (11d) on TR! Course, you get used to it, like anywhere.
Except the Tor, where you need to have strength, and lots of it.
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ryanb
Jan 19, 2006, 11:17 PM
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City of Rocks, ID is the easiest spot I have ever climbed, Index, WA the hardest.
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chalkfree
Jan 19, 2006, 11:37 PM
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Having just returned from J-tree and Red Rocks, I must say that I found J-Tree to be slightly challenging, it was more from learning the technique than anything. I'd say it's ratings are just right, while Red Rocks is slightly soft, mostly in the sport areas.
As someone that's climbed at Devil's lake, I would have to say that I find it's reputation to be slightly exagerated. Personally I think that rock takes more getting used to than anyplace I've been, but the ratings are solid for the type of climbing. Personally I don't think I'd consider Devil's stiff; however, the North Shore is an entirely different story, but as few folks have climbed there it hardly matters.
As a side note, if Yosemite is stiff, I think that just means that everywhere else is soft by definition.
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crazyscuba
Jan 20, 2006, 5:33 AM
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obviously ratings are going to be very very subjective. that said i would agree that the rock at devils lake takes a lot of getting used to. it took me a long time to get used to the lack of friction. after spending a year and a half climbing mostly on granite and then coming back to the quartzite i'm surprised by the similarities. in many areas, especially some of the bouldering, the rock at devils lake climbs extremely similar to granite just without all of the friction. the ratings will reflect a lot of that in them. most of the ratings come from people that are used to the rock so they tend to be a bit sandbagged.
all of the climbs that i have done on the north shore seem to be pretty much spot on. not soft and not sandbagged, just fun. obviously this is just my take on things though.
steve
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leapinlizard
Jan 20, 2006, 8:27 AM
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Well, figured I would give my 2 cents. In my experience ratings everywhere range from stiff to soft. For example in Yosemite there is the Church Bowl Practice Crack which is rated a 5.10b yet I can lead it on trad with not too much of a problem, meanwhile I can float down the river and take my turn on After 6, which is 5.7 and feel pretty akward in places. But if we were going to compare apples to apples then what about The Snake Dyke Route. It is also a 5.7 and while it is hugely runout in places, didn't really have any difficult moves at all. Moving back to the church bowl area, there is a 5.11 face there that I couldn't get but 3 feet up on. One day I will go back and walk up it, but for now I just have to call myself a 5.10 climber. I do have to add that when I rate new routes that I put up, I try to base them off of Yosemites harder routes, and not off the easier routes I have done, and I will add that while I haven't climbed everywhere here in Arizona, the Pit and Mt. Lemmon are generally softer than Yosemite and the same goes for Golden Valley as well.
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