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nowinowski
Jan 26, 2006, 3:32 PM
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what do you all think of route setters setting far above their climbing ability. This has been a big problem at Peak Experiences in Richmond and Sportrock in Alexandria as of late. Seems to me 90% of routes should be set at or below the setters climbing limit.
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musicman1586
Jan 26, 2006, 3:46 PM
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I don't see a problem with it as long as they don't try to rate it. You may be a weak climber but you may be able to see really great lines, moves, etc. etc. they may have a mind that can piece that stuff together without the experience of ever having climbed at that level. However, if they do put up something that's above their head, I don't think they should give it a rating, as that's not their level so they couldn't accurately judge what it truely is. I'm a measly beginning climber who climbs harder 10's outside, but in some gyms I've been to I'm pulling V6's and 11's or whatever, and that's not cause anybody is purposely trying to skew things, it's just that the employees don't have enough climbing experience to really give an accurate rating.
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azrockclimber
Jan 26, 2006, 3:55 PM
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In reply to: I don't see a problem with it as long as they don't try to rate it. You may be a weak climber but you may be able to see really great lines, moves, etc. etc. they may have a mind that can piece that stuff together without the experience of ever having climbed at that level. However, if they do put up something that's above their head, I don't think they should give it a rating, as that's not their level so they couldn't accurately judge what it truely is. I'm a measly beginning climber who climbs harder 10's outside, but in some gyms I've been to I'm pulling V6's and 11's or whatever, and that's not cause anybody is purposely trying to skew things, it's just that the employees don't have enough climbing experience to really give an accurate rating.
i think i disagree with this.
You may be able to see a good line but setting a route is very different. If you can't do the moves then how are you going to be able to judge where it is appropraite to put the bolts. If you just rap bolt it and drill a bolt every 7 feet or whatever. The fluididty of the route has a great chance of being compromised.
Why put up routes that you cannot climb. There is no sense in that. Leave a harder route for someone who climbs harder. We will have better routes that way. Remeber, bolt placement is a huge part of the experience that you have on a sport climb.
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anykineclimb
Jan 26, 2006, 4:11 PM
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I think this needs to get moved to indoor climbing. azrockclimber, OP's talking about setting in a gym.
I used to put up routes harder than I could climb. OF course, this wasn't a regualr occurance but sometimes setting the route, it would just end up that way. Other times, I'd put something together for some of the stronger guys in the gym. The never complained about it and actually like my routes.
When I cay "harder than I could climb"; I'm not saying I couldn't do the route at all. I could usually do a few moves and able to visualize the route.
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jw11733
Jan 26, 2006, 4:13 PM
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In reply to: You may be able to see a good line but setting a route is very different. If you can't do the moves then how are you going to be able to judge where it is appropraite to put the bolts.
Yes, but the OP is talking about setting gym routes.
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socrate
Jan 26, 2006, 5:20 PM
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What about setting a project. Or hey on a boulder wall how do you work harder stuff. You try and try again on something you imagine can be done until a stronger climber comes by climbs it in two tries and says wow nice problem.
I don't say that climbing experience doesn't help. I find that the better route setters are those with LOTS of outdoor experience in LOTS of different climbing styles. They often make technical routes rather than burly routes.
But hey I think lots of other factors can affect the quality of a route. The main one being able to take criticism from other people. Anyhow What you find a great route is simply subjective.
And when you get down to it's a plastic route. If it's that bad, modify it. Or change it. You won't call it a classic and leave it for five years. Better yet, Go climb outdoors, that's where the fun is.
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boss
Jan 26, 2006, 5:34 PM
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In reply to: what do you all think of route setters setting far above their climbing ability. This has been a big problem at Peak Experiences in Richmond and Sportrock in Alexandria as of late. Seems to me 90% of routes should be set at or below the setters climbing limit.
You talking about TR/lead routes or in the bouldering cave? I haven't been to Peak since early Dec. because I've been out of town. Are you finding major discrepancies with route grading, or is there some other issue?
Boss
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azrockclimber
Jan 26, 2006, 5:34 PM
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In reply to: I think this needs to get moved to indoor climbing. azrockclimber, OP's talking about setting in a gym. I used to put up routes harder than I could climb. OF course, this wasn't a regualr occurance but sometimes setting the route, it would just end up that way. Other times, I'd put something together for some of the stronger guys in the gym. The never complained about it and actually like my routes. When I cay "harder than I could climb"; I'm not saying I couldn't do the route at all. I could usually do a few moves and able to visualize the route.
no kidding?..I totally missed that. Disregard my post then.
sorry.
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verbal
Jan 26, 2006, 5:36 PM
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Any decent route setter should be able to set routes that are slightly harder than what they can climb. Granted, a setter should only do this occasionally, but should be able to do it easily and grade it appropriately. Maybe only a letter grade or two higher than what they climb. If you are really good you may be able to set routes way harder than you can climb, but this is rare, and usually they are crap. We had a setter set some impossible crap the other day, he can climb about 5.11 and set something that might have been 13d or so, but even if it was, the route was crappy any way. We promptly made it easier and made if flow much better. Now people will actually climb it. Nobody wants crazy moves to supper crappy clipping holds, and I mean super crappy.
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midwestishell
Jan 26, 2006, 5:50 PM
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I agree with Verbal 100%.
My staff of setters does really well setting to about a half grade (using the + or -) higher than their comfortable climbing ability. Much more than that and the route loses its flow or might just have a series of moves significantly harder than the rest of the route. I also find the half grade rule to work really well for people trying to give themselves something to project. No one is projecting something in a gym several grades above what they can climb unless it is a inconsistent route with a few stopper moves thrown in to raise the grade.
My staff has a much harder time setting easy/mid-grade routes. They are too concerned with trying to "force" moves on a 5.7 than just getting someone to have fun getting up the wall. This could become a thread all its own in my opinion.
Th
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taraus_de_bull
Jan 26, 2006, 6:08 PM
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after working in both a profession gym and a college gym, my experience is this:
Setters normally can't set much more then a grade or two above their level and have the route be good.
when it comes to routes. due to the nature of setting them, you need to be a better setter to do them well, mostly becuase it the time it takes to set a good route. often i've seen setters get tired and inpatient.
when it comes to bouldering. it's much easier to set a boulder problem so i think there is a little bit more room for setting above your limits. but i've rarely ever seen a v5 climber set a good v9.
just my experience, so i say, setting way abover your level is a rare skill.
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j_ung
Jan 26, 2006, 6:10 PM
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j_ung moved this thread from General to Indoor Gyms.
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kimgraves
Jan 26, 2006, 6:16 PM
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Hi Gang,
My gym is actually a not-for-profit club (New York City Climbers Club). Unlike most gyms, we allow our club members - whatever their current ability - to set routes after they've taken a route setting course which is free to our members. So unlike some gyms, who may only have a couple of setters, we have probably 20 plus. This allows for great diversity in the kind of routes that get set. Often setters are good climbers themselves. But a 5.12 climber is going to have a hard time setting a 5.7 route and knowing it's a 7 and not a 6 or an 8. Having a 5.6 climber set a 5.7 route often results in something interesting. With this diversity we can get good and interesting problems from 5.4 to 5.12.
The rule we operate under is that the setter can set something that has one or two moves on it that are too hard for their current ability. That way the can can project that route. It also allows them to grade the project reasonably accurately. We also usually have more than the setter climb the route to double check the grade.
Regards, Kim
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kydd76
Jan 26, 2006, 6:26 PM
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At my gym the trick is find a good middle ground since most of the people who use it are not strong climbers, it is easy to dog people off hard routes. People will soon grow disinterested and not what to climb on the wall any more. Second is that a lot of are users are only three feet tall. Which is a great challenge since they can usually climb hard with out even thinking about it, since they are kids. So the big project climbs get no one on them except a few of us and all the others are very hard to grade for any one over five feet.
We try to set good thoughtful bouldering problems. Since you can teach people how to project and track in the cave with more ease, second the wall is more overhung so they don’t feel as beaten by falling as they do when climbing the roped wall. Plus bouldering means very little to most of the regular users. Usually hard routes are not any harder than a grade above red point for the setters so we can all project it.
With the few very hard problems that will always find there way in to any gym. Don’t forget the trick problems too, since big dyno's are hella fun.
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jitterbugclimb
Jan 26, 2006, 6:46 PM
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nowinowski, I'm wiling to bet that your frustration comes from having participated at recent abs comps at these gyms. I know the setters at peak and they create some good problems. I don't climb in comps, but I did get in there the next day and tried a few of them. I will say that for two problems, a V9 and a V7, the grades were off by quite a bit. The V9 was sent the night of the comp, and the V7 (feels closer to V9-10) has yet to be sent after being tried repeatedly by some strong climbers. That said, you have to expect that not every problem is going to be 100% accurate all of the time. Of the 70+ problems set for the comp, 99% of them were rated fairly accurately. If it frustrates you to try problems that are harder than what you can climb, and they are rated too low for the difficulty, let a staff person know or find a problem that suits you.
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nowinowski
Jan 26, 2006, 7:04 PM
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I haven't sweat the grades in peak in years as they are all over the map and i mean the world map. My concern is having hard routes ( or as hard as I care to climb) with crappy moves (or being graded so innacurrately that I can't set up a workout). My philosophy has always been that routes are a routesetters medium in teaching others the subltle techniques of the discipline. When you don't know these techniques you cant utilize them in setting. If you are a five ten or 11a climbers you don't have much to teach a 5.12 or 5.13 climber. Whereas a 5.13 climber has years of tricks, techniques and other stuff to teach a 5.11 climber.
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dubforceone
Jan 26, 2006, 7:22 PM
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What i like about the gym where i climb is that nothing is rated...tons of people set...and problems go up and come down on a regular basis...i think people forget sometimes that it is in a GYM and its not the end of the world if there is a shitty route..or the setter cant climb it......
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jitterbugclimb
Jan 26, 2006, 7:23 PM
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Peak is very open about letting employees, no matter their skill or experience, set routes. Therefore, some of the roped routes suck. Thats why I don't bother on roped routes there unless there is one that is just spectacular (which does not happen that often). I get a better workout just doing laps in the boulder cave. If I was concerned with just having a good time climbing in the gym, I would maybe climb more of the routes. But I don't climb inside because I like it. I just do it for the workout / training for outdoor climbing. I do wish that they would allow an area for system holds.
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jbrayson
Jan 26, 2006, 7:56 PM
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I thought that it was funny that "weak" route setters at Peak got brought up. I've climbed there for a while and never noticed a problem.
However, I have seen a few people (I think from C-ville) complaining rather loudly at Peak about route setters setting routes above their ability level. As this has seemed to always coincide with their falling off moves, getting frustrated and flailing like it was their first day, I haven't taken them very seriously.
-J
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nowinowski
Jan 26, 2006, 8:07 PM
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that may be. I've been known to complain and I've certainly been known to flail. It doesn't change the quality of the route setting. A lot of people in that particular gym don't climb outside much and don't know any better. And for the record i complain about as many routes that I onsight as I fall on and v/versa. C'mon these are the same people that persisted in saying that spraypainting their holds didn't degrade their quality for like 2 years before admitting that they were wrong.
I am nate from Charlottesville if people don't care to be anonymous
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midwestishell
Jan 26, 2006, 8:17 PM
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How many routes do your gyms have?
We have 70-80 routes in the gym at one time with a normal distribution centered around 5.9+. Even though there may be more routes up, typically there are only 3-4 routes of each grade being worked by most people at a particular time. It seems that if we let anybody set any grade the route quality would decrease. But if there are a ton of routes up, what's it matter, just go climb something else.
th
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cclarke
Jan 26, 2006, 8:25 PM
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I haven't been to Peak but I've enjoyed the routesetting at Sportrock Alexandria recently. Some of the route grades seem a bit off but just randomly harder or easier so it seems normal to me. I appreciate the more rapid turnover in routes. Don't know about the boulder problems.
What was it at Sportrock that you didn't like?
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nowinowski
Jan 26, 2006, 8:34 PM
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I don't climb at SR but my good buddy had a similar complaint about the route setter for bouldering there. ( i believe that setter has been let go) But he left with all his friends for the new earthtreks that opened. Gym owners need to realize that a certain amount of quality control ought to be present in their product. A bit sticky in that it is all quite subjective though.
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nowinowski
Jan 26, 2006, 8:40 PM
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I don't climb at SR but my good buddy had a similar complaint about the route setter for bouldering there. ( i believe that setter has been let go) But he left with all his friends for the new earthtreks that opened. Gym owners need to realize that a certain amount of quality control ought to be present in their product. A bit sticky in that it is all quite subjective though.
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jred
Jan 26, 2006, 9:12 PM
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Just how weak are we talking here? Could the setter possibly get the route after a while working it?
If the setter is a 5.9 climber setting 13's that is lame for sure, but if the setter is a 5.12 climber, and a solid boulderer then I would say it is OK to set 13's, as long as they could potentially do most of the moves.
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