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mother_sheep
Jan 31, 2006, 4:05 PM
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In the past I have used 2 Jumars when ascending a fixed line and I have never used a gri-gri to do so. I'd like to hear about the pros and cons of both systems. If I can get away with only using 1 Jumar and my gri-gri, that would be great. Does it matter if you use the left jumar or the right jumar when using a gri-gri? Any information on ascending with the gri-gri would be appreciated too. Thanks.
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styndall
Jan 31, 2006, 4:33 PM
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I <3 the jumar + gri gri for ascending, and here's why.
I'm a total weaksauce, and ascending is real hard. I want to make it easy. So I use one ascender (the left one, in my case) and my gri-gri to set up a 2:1 body haul and fly up a rope.
Put your ascender on like normal, with a biner dangling from it. Clip your footloop/etrier/whatever to a separate biner. Hook your gri gri in like normal, then run the loop of rope that comes out of the gri gri and hangs down up through the biner on the bottom of the ascender. Then your rope will have a z-shape, starting from the ascender, going down into the gri gri, then going back up into the biner clipped to the ascender, and then down into your hand. Then clip your etrier's biner into the biner already on the ascender, and you're ready to rock. You don't want to clip the etrier directly to the biner you've got the rope in, since a lot of rope will be moving fairly quickly through there, and you definitely don't want to burn through the clipping loop on your etrier.
Then, jug away. You push the ascender up the rope a bit, then haul down on the ascender with your left hand and stand up in your etrier while simultaneously hauling down on the rope with your right hand. You'll be taking some weight off your gri gri by pulling up with your left, and the rest, you'll be hauling with a 2:1 mechanical advantage.
This is pretty sweet, and everyone who sees will agree: as regards methods for jugging, this one is pretty bitchin'.
I'll take a photo sometime soon and post it up. It's simple and oh so pretty.
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climbingaggie03
Jan 31, 2006, 4:36 PM
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I haven't used the Jumar and Jumar method, but I have used a Jumar with a gri-gri, and it works well. I use a left Jumar with a gri-gri, so I slide the Jumar up with my left hand, then stand on my aider, as I stand up, I pull the slack through my gri-gri with my right hand. I like doing it this way, it's smooth, and it gives me the flexibility of going up or down with minimal changes.
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t-dog
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Jan 31, 2006, 4:39 PM
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hey ma_sheep, you getting into aiding or something?
If you sneak on over to the Aid climbing forum, you'll find it littered with different peoples opinions of which setup is better, and in what situation.
From your post, though, you seem only interested in ascending fixed lines (i.e. not cleaning an aid pitch). Also worth noting is that fixed lines are often old and stiffer (think cables), which makes using a gri-gri on them not much fun at all, as you have to pull the stiff rope through the bend of the gri-gri. Most people use a gri-gri so that they can lower off if necessary, but unless you're cleaning aid, you rarely need to do this.
So then you're left with the choice of 2 jumars on daisies, or one jumar and one chest ascender. From my personal experiences, which seem to be fairly in line with the online punter consensus, jumar + chest ascender is faster and easier on free-hanging to vertical fixed lines, whereas jumar + jumar is the preferred method for slabbier terrain. But try both out for yourself and see which one you like best.
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t-dog
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Jan 31, 2006, 4:54 PM
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In reply to: I'm a total weaksauce, and ascending is real hard. I want to make it easy. So I use one ascender (the left one, in my case) and my gri-gri to set up a 2:1 body haul and fly up a rope.
I agree that jumar + gri-gri is the physically less demanding method, but inherently in the fact that you are using a 2:1 hauling system, you can't fly up the rope. In the end, the amount of progress you make is directly proportional to the amount of effort you expend.
Think of it as riding a bike, it's a lot easier to get into low gears and pedal slowly away, but you're not gonna be flying anywhere until you get into high gear and put your back into it.
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brianinslc
Jan 31, 2006, 4:57 PM
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In reply to: In the past I have used 2 Jumars when ascending a fixed line and I have never used a gri-gri to do so. I'd like to hear about the pros and cons of both systems. If I can get away with only using 1 Jumar and my gri-gri, that would be great. Does it matter if you use the left jumar or the right jumar when using a gri-gri? Any information on ascending with the gri-gri would be appreciated too. Thanks.
I use the gri gri/jumar combo. I don't think right or left matters much, as I move and cup the top of the ascender instead of using the handle (more efficient, methinks).
A big advantage is, for steep and traversing pitches. "Deucy"-ing is super easy, just hit the handle on the gri gri and drop down. And, obviously, switching to rappel is easy. I think its easier and more intuitive to jug with a gri gri, once you try it and suss out the method. I find I don't get near as tired. Also, with a gri gri on the rope, you're on belay too, but, I still tie back up knots. That advantage is also a disadvantage if you need to move the rope out of the gri gri (passing a knot for instance).
A disadvantage would be a lower angle slab type jug, where a pair of jugs would be easier and faster. Or, super steep to overhanging, where a frog type system might be a bunch easier (although I've jugged a full pitch of overhanging with a gri gri/jumar set up, and was no problemo).
Climbing ran a tech tip this month on a "soft knot" method of glacier travel using a gri gri. Switching to jugging is easy as pie.
Also, if you belay with a gri gri, then, once your partner sets up the rope as "secure", then its easy to start jugging because you're already into the gri gri. Another thing I've found, if you add a pulley instead of a biner on the jug, I can haul myself up a short distance without using my leg (might come in handy?). Better yet is sub'ing a mini or pro traxion for the gri gri though (although not as nice if you have to lower out).
I use a speed stirrup on my lone jumar. Seems to make my wall gear a bit less bulky and cluttered to eliminate one jumar and the etriers (I use the russian aiders).
So, I think if you're super efficient with jugging on two jumars, then, I'd probably stick with that. But, its easy to try the gri gri method. I find I kinda like the body postion of using a gri gri. If nothing else, its a nice thing to know how to do (and pretty easy to set up and remember).
Brian in SLC
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mother_sheep
Jan 31, 2006, 5:13 PM
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In reply to: hey ma_sheep, you getting into aiding or something? If you sneak on over to the Aid climbing forum, you'll find it littered with different peoples opinions of which setup is better, and in what situation. From your post, though, you seem only interested in ascending fixed lines (i.e. not cleaning an aid pitch). Also worth noting is that fixed lines are often old and stiffer (think cables), which makes using a gri-gri on them not much fun at all, as you have to pull the stiff rope through the bend of the gri-gri. Most people use a gri-gri so that they can lower off if necessary, but unless you're cleaning aid, you rarely need to do this. So then you're left with the choice of 2 jumars on daisies, or one jumar and one chest ascender. From my personal experiences, which seem to be fairly in line with the online punter consensus, jumar + chest ascender is faster and easier on free-hanging to vertical fixed lines, whereas jumar + jumar is the preferred method for slabbier terrain. But try both out for yourself and see which one you like best.
Actually, this will not be used for an aid route per-say. Looking at doing some big routes that may have some 5.12 pitches on them. For the sake of speed and not exhausting myself on these pitches and slowing us down, I intend to have my partner fix the line. I will also be cleaning. There is also a chance that we will be fixing lines the evening prior so we'll be using our ropes. The drawback is that we won't be able to use the 8mm ropes if I have him fix lines.
I've found that I move pretty fast when cleaning and using the 2 Jumar and aider system but I'd like to try something different. I'm not thrilled about having the extra gear as they will be hanging off of me on my leads as well. So the speed stirrup might be a good idea. Can you post a pic?
Good info so far. Thanks!
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krusher4
Jan 31, 2006, 5:19 PM
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Gri-gri +Jumar, I would think would be worthless for cleaning pitches or jugging fixed lines. So why carry a gri-gri at all.
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euroford
Jan 31, 2006, 5:26 PM
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they both have upsides.
the grigri + jumar system (modified frog system) is great for cleaning routes that have allot of zig-zags or traverses becouse its easy to pass the piece with the jumar and then let slack out of the grigri.
the 2:1 ratchet setup is silly. i find it more tireing than just yarding up the slack through the grigri. it introduces allot of friction into the system, it shortens your ascending 'stroke' and will cause you to put too much weight on your arms as opposed to using your legs.
this system is also fairly cumberson on slabby stuff i find. better for vert.
the 2 jumar system i find to be fairly efficient, when you get smooth at it its about the same amount of work as climbing stairs, its also great for slabby stuff. it can be hard passing pieces of traversy stuff, but is totally doable and you can get good at it.
the most effcient system is the petzl frog which uses one jug and a petzl croll. not very good for cleaning though.
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thegroundhurts
Jan 31, 2006, 5:27 PM
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A gri-gri you have to feed when ascending, two jumars set up properly in a frog-ascending format (see petzl's croll manual), you barely have to use your hands, exceprt for balance. Two ascenders are MUCH more efficient. The keys to efficiency are:
Put your harness ascender as low as possible.
Put your top ascender so that when you stand, it is touching, jammed against, your chest ascender.
When you move, put your knees against your chest (or close) to get the top ascender as high as possible.
Touch your heels to your rear end, and kick smoothly behind you, balancing, but not pulling with your arms.
Repeat.
If both of your ascenders have handles, (I'm assuming you're using the standard petzls), you can use the top hole for the harness attachmnet to increase efficiency, but be aware getting the rope on and off will become a royal pain in the buttocks.
In the sense of feeding the grigri, if you do sacrifice one ascender, using the grigri for the top ascender will be much easier when jugging, as the botom ascender should feed freely from the weight of the rope.
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brianinslc
Jan 31, 2006, 5:32 PM
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In reply to: In the sense of feeding the grigri, if you do sacrifice one ascender, using the grigri for the top ascender will be much easier when jugging, as the botom ascender should feed freely from the weight of the rope.
No way.
Can't get the slack out. Etc etc.
Have you tried this?
-Brian in SLC
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brianinslc
Jan 31, 2006, 5:42 PM
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In reply to: the 2:1 ratchet setup is silly. i find it more tireing than just yarding up the slack through the grigri. it introduces allot of friction into the system, it shortens your ascending 'stroke' and will cause you to put too much weight on your arms as opposed to using your legs.
Disagree on the silly. I find that it gives me a nice break to use the muscles on the back of my arm, rather than the bicep and lat that seem to get worked in other aspects of climbing. That, and a bit of tendonitis in the bicep...makes pulling the rope down, instead of up, mucho nicer.
Personal preference, but, for me, its a huge advantage in the gri gri/jumar method.
Another "thing", is, you'll want that gri gri as close to your harness as possible, to give you a bigger stroke. I don't think the redirect shortens the stroke that much, depending on where the biner is positioned. I find standing and pulling the rope up through is kinda wierder and less natural than standing up and pulling down (and seems to keep me in balance better, or, I like the position better).
Concur that if you are efficient using the jumar/jumar system, that it'll be more efficient to stay with, as the gri gri method isn't that efficient, but, for me, seems much easier but it can be a cluster.
Brian in SLC
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wes_allen
Jan 31, 2006, 5:56 PM
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One Jumar (right, domanaint hand) and a gri gri, also rigged with the two to one thing is what I use, but I pretty much only jug fixed (usually static) lines on steep rock. Having the gri gri in the system gives you some flexiblity when you are hanging around - easy to lower a bit, etc.
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caughtinside
Jan 31, 2006, 6:02 PM
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Hmm, is a speed stirrup just a piece of webbing with a loop at the end? I've used double shoulder length runners as impromptu etriers, and they've worked well for me, been just the right length.
I'm 5'10. If you're shorter, maybe you could tie an overhand or two into a 48" runner, and find the right length? Less bulky than a regular etrier, not so much to carry. Daisy, runner, grigri, and jug.
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brianinslc
Jan 31, 2006, 6:12 PM
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In reply to: Hmm, is a speed stirrup just a piece of webbing with a loop at the end?
Yates.
http://www.yatesgear.com/climbing/etriers/images/Sturip02A.jpg
See Han's speed climbing book too.
Brian in SLC
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caughtinside
Jan 31, 2006, 6:18 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Hmm, is a speed stirrup just a piece of webbing with a loop at the end? Yates. http://www.yatesgear.com/climbing/etriers/images/Sturip02A.jpg See Han's speed climbing book too. Brian in SLC
Cool. I'll stick with my 48" runner for now, but I'm more of a slow climber than a speed climber. :)
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gladegp
Jan 31, 2006, 6:20 PM
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I just saw the new petzl movie and Beth Rodden uses 2 jumars. And if anyone jumars a lot it's her :wink:
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skinner
Jan 31, 2006, 6:22 PM
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I've tried the GriGri + Jumar thing, and just found it way to slow and inefficient. It was a real pain in the a$$ passing over fixed points that I normally just *clip-clip* right over. If strength was an issue or you were heavily laden with pack, gear, etc., than maybe the mechanical advantage might come in handy.
As far as Left - Right Jumars, I think it's a case of what works for you. I am right handed but use my left Jumar on top. This could be partly from shoulder/back injuries, so that I find I can stretch out more with my left getting the maximum stride each time. The same with using one leg as opposed to the Frog-style technique. I just can't get both legs/knees to bend without a lot more effort then just striding away on one leg.
I really don't think there is a right/wrong/better answer to this question and that it is personal preference, try both and use whatever works best for you.
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flamer
Jan 31, 2006, 6:25 PM
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If you want to move fast at all forget the Grigri as an ascender.
I occasionally use it instead of backup knots, but it is more cumbersome and takes more time.
Sure seems to me that alot of the people who like using it are either#1 Not in shape or #2 not experinced enough to know how to use standard ascenders.
josh
P.S.
PM me lady....
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paulv7
Jan 31, 2006, 6:44 PM
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Depending on what you may already own a good way to go would to get a package deal like this one:
Petzl System
Plus if you were doing alot of ascending it may be worth getting a pantin along with the package above. You can turn the frog method into more of a rope walker style. Plus it helps keep your body more vertical.
From what I have found if you are only ascending a short distance a gri-gri is fine. But for long trips it is better to use something like the Petzl Croll (chest ascender) and Petzl Ascension (hand ascender). The main issue I find is the croll will not feed rope right off the ground and with a gri-gri you have to pull in slack.
As for which hand ascender you should get. If you go with a gri-gri then you want to use the gri-gri with which ever hand you pull slack with now. So get an ascender for the other hand. A way I figured out which hand I wanted for an ascender is to slide the ascension back down to you (unweighted) you have to flip the bail with your thumb. It is much easier for me to do that with my left hand than my right.
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styndall
Jan 31, 2006, 7:02 PM
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In reply to: the 2:1 ratchet setup is silly. i find it more tireing than just yarding up the slack through the grigri. it introduces allot of friction into the system, it shortens your ascending 'stroke' and will cause you to put too much weight on your arms as opposed to using your legs.
It doesn't shorten your stroke in actuality. I can get just as much distance per jug with the 2:1 as I can with just the gri gri and the jug. Once you get into a rhythm with it, I feel like I'm moving just as fast with considerably less effort.
YMMV, though.
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styndall
Jan 31, 2006, 7:05 PM
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In reply to: the 2:1 ratchet setup is silly. i find it more tireing than just yarding up the slack through the grigri. it introduces allot of friction into the system, it shortens your ascending 'stroke' and will cause you to put too much weight on your arms as opposed to using your legs.
It doesn't shorten your stroke in actuality. I can get just as much distance per jug with the 2:1 as I can with just the gri gri and the jug. Once you get into a rhythm with it, I feel like I'm moving just as fast with considerably less effort.
YMMV, though.
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thegroundhurts
Feb 1, 2006, 1:01 AM
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I must clarify from last post, I'm far from an expert in the best way to ascend with grigris, I've only played around with them a little for that purpose. But I have done a huge amount on dual ascenders (I cave quite a bit) and if you have two ascenders already available, there's no point in using anything else. I can garuntee you that will be easiest. If you only have one ascender try using a prussik instead, it could easily prove easier than a grigri. In principle upper-ascender prussik will be easier, as the chest ascender will feed freely (for frog style anyways) but you may have to do a little trickery to attach the cord to both your feet and tether it to your harness (alpine butteryfly below prussik knot in both cord tails to harness tether, then the rest of the tail to feet).
A well adjusted frog, with practice, is the best method to ascend in free hang (short of specialized caving systems that require hauling around more gear than a small trad rack) when in contact with rock, especially less than vertical rock, I find it helps to use one foot to ascend, and the other touching the rock to steer me. As far as cleaning gear, teh book "alpine cave techniques" has a excellent section on manuvering directionals and other "technical" ascending, if you can borrow/steal/buy it.
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epic_ed
Feb 2, 2006, 6:54 PM
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Lordy -- some interesting responses so far...
Gri gri/ascender combo is definitely not the most efficient set up to jug a fixed line, but it will work. I used to go with this combo all the time and thought it was easier for all the reasons Styndall indicates, but the fact is it takes more strokes to get to the top. That said, I still use it to clean most aid pitches because it allows for much more versatility.
In reply to: Gri-gri +Jumar, I would think would be worthless for cleaning pitches or jugging fixed lines. So why carry a gri-gri at all.
Yeah...whatever. I'll enlighten you -- most aid pitches that aren't vertical bolt ladders in a perfect line can be clean easier with the gri gri/ascender combo. Ever jam your ascender into the piece you're trying to clean? It's a bitch to get it unweighted. Not so with the gri gri -- simply pull back the handle and you get some slack. Ever needed to quickly switch from ascending to descending (help unstick a pig, retreat due to weather, etc..)? Futz around for 5 minutes with switching into rappel mode, OR simply pop the top ascender off the rope and pull back on the handle of the gri gri to start rappeling. Easy and very versatile.
Now, in Tracey's situation she's dealing with an entirely different matter. Ascending a fixed rope is a much different situation from cleaning. Frankly, there is no easy way to ascend a line that is past vertical unless you're carrying some specialized gear. In this case it sounds like you want to make the best use out of what you'll have with you on a long free route. In most cases, you'd want to take a look at the pitches you think you might have to jug to determine what to carry. Does the line zig-zag a lot or involve a traverse? It may make life easier to go with a gri gri/ascender. Is it slabby and pretty straight forward? Two ascenders -- definitely. Is it past vertical and overhanging? Jugging is going to suck regardless of what set up you use, so I'd go with the lighter of your options. If you're taking along the gri gri for belaying, then just use the gri gri/ascender combo. If you weren't planning to take a gri gri, go with two ascenders.
Another option if it is overhanging is to take some time to learn how to frog with an ascender/Croll combo. That would be the lightest set up of the group, and most efficient for jugging stuff past vertical. It's also the worst combo for anything slabby. :? So, I guess as with all things...it just depends.
Always tie a backup knot. ;-)
Ed
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powair
Feb 2, 2006, 7:04 PM
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I got my rockclimbing roots from caving, on a single fixed verticle rope. I've tried most of the systems out there...and didnt even know what a grigri was until i started climbing. The best system out there is BY FAR the Gibbs ropewalker system...its alittle complex but you can fly up a rope with it. If you want to get into verticle rope stuff check out the book "on rope, or on ropeII" Some of the stuff in there might boggle your rock climbing mind, but go into it open minded. Verticle rope and rock climbing/aid climbing share alot of things, but some are really differnt...but rescue climbing share both...[/ramble]
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