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detonator123


Feb 8, 2006, 2:36 PM
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Oval Biners?
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After reading a ton of webpages and books on aid climbing, I still do not understand why so many oval biners are needed? I understand that they do not shift when weighted, but if you just clip your aiders into the piece and then unclip the aiders, won't you just keep the same oval biner on the pair of aiders when you move them up?


kristoffer


Feb 8, 2006, 3:44 PM
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well if your averaging placing gear every 6 feet on a 60 m pitch you use about 30 if your biners if your only clipping one for each peace of pro.. if you add a runner into the scenario now you have used about 60 biners.

yes, you will keep the same biner on your aider and daisy, but i donít think you would want to just leapfrog every peace of pro on the entire pitch.. that would make for a might messy and long fall if a peace of gear was to fail..

basically, aid climbing eats up biners.. its always better to have more then less..

I donít know if that was the answer you were looking for..


pindrvr75


Feb 8, 2006, 3:57 PM
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This may seem redundant from the last reply but I'll say it anyway. When you are aiding a pitch you are placing pro at arm's length for every move (ideally). That means a biner and a piece of pro every few feet. That's a lot of biners for a full rope length. Why ovals? I'm assuming you are asking why solid aluminum ovals. That's because wiregates IMHO are not designed hold up to all the scraping around on the rock that aiding produces. ( I'll catch hell for that last statement)


stymingersfink


Feb 8, 2006, 4:08 PM
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That's because wiregates IMHO are not designed hold up to all the scraping around on the rock that aiding produces. ( I'll catch hell for that last statement)

Here's your hell, with explanation.

Wiregate ovals are DOPE (the SHIT, THE shit, fer SHURE, whatever you care to call it) for all things racking on an aid climb.

Lightweight and narrower in profile, they allow you to fit a little more on your gear rack without it seeming so damn bulky. They suck to make Mexican Lockers with though. They also are less than ideal for tying hitches on.

Oh, did I mention they're lighter, too?

So, I tend to carry about 40 wiregate ovals and 20 standard ovals. Half of the standard ovals are pre-wrapped with a small strip of duct tape around the middle of the gate (for use as a Mexi-Locker)

Of course, MMMV, yours will too.


stymingersfink


Feb 8, 2006, 4:13 PM
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Oh yeah, BTW, on short little aid lines feel free to bring your trad-biners. You're not going to be stuck dealing with them for the next week, ya see. On a big wall it's a whole 'nother story.


One of the most frustrating things on a wall in recent memory was dealing with several neutrinos that a partner had brought along. They always seemed to end up at the top anchor, and they're just too small to deal with all the things that end up clipped into biners at the anchor.


pindrvr75


Feb 8, 2006, 4:16 PM
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Should we start using wiregates to clip into pins?


jeremy11


Feb 8, 2006, 6:38 PM
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So what is a Mexi Locker? Just an oval with duct tape to stick the gate shut? What is the application for such a setup?

Also, about ovalwires (Note first I have done maybe 10 pitches C1 total) I concur with everything positive about ovalwires, plus they are cheap. I have also found you only need ovals for the biner directly clipped to the pro since that is where you are clipping your aiders, etc. most other biners you can get away with non oval biners since you wont be weighting them with multiple shifting biners. I have also found on commonly used pieces especially when you backclean it can help to leave an oval clipped directly to the end of the cam (not the sling's racking biner - rope goes thru that - this one goes on the cam itself)
Make sense?


Partner soberpete


Feb 8, 2006, 8:54 PM
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Ditto on the Mexi Locker. Can anyone please explain how it is used ?
- Thanks


pindrvr75


Feb 8, 2006, 9:07 PM
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You folks almost had me convinced that wiregates had a place in aid climbing other than in racking gear. If we're going to put duct tape on them now and call them lockers, I think I'll opt out.
This new concept is interesting however. Is it a way to save money or something?


paganmonkeyboy


Feb 8, 2006, 9:13 PM
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I have also found you only need ovals for the biner directly clipped to the pro since that is where you are clipping your aiders, etc. most other biners you can get away with non oval biners since you wont be weighting them with multiple shifting biners.

i don't have a lot of ovals (yet) so i just use whatever is on the rack, but i was told over and over and over to clip into the piece with my aiders, not the biner...clip in as high as possible, every single time...

the only exception i can think of would be pitons and hangers, where the piece can only accommodate a single biner...


stymingersfink


Feb 9, 2006, 12:21 PM
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You folks almost had me convinced that wiregates had a place in aid climbing other than in racking gear. If we're going to put duct tape on them now and call them lockers, I think I'll opt out.
This new concept is interesting however. Is it a way to save money or something?

I clip pins with wiregates, why not?

Mexi-Lockers save weight, save $ and are a small part of the ingenuity necessary to be a good aid climber.

The mexican locker:

The purpose of any locker is to keep the gate from accidently opening, thereby weakening the snap-link by 2/3rd's its full rating. To this end, take a narrow strip of duct tape, long enough to go completely around the barrel of the gate 1.5 - 2 times and tucking the tail back to itself to provide a pull-tab.

Now, when you end up in a position on the pitch where you find yourself wishing that you had a locker, just pull a mexi-locker from your rack and clip the piece. Now pull the tape tab, clip your rope, and replace the tape, this time AROUND the nose/gate interface preventing the gate from accidently opening. The second when cleaning would remove the tape from the nose/gate area, and replace on the gate portion of the biner, leaving the pull tab accessible for the next use.

This does not work very well with wiregates, as manufacturers specifically recommend AGAINST wrapping the gate with anything, as the spring tension relies upon the unfettered movement of the wire. On wiregates, you would have to wrap your tape around the spine of the biner, though when "locked" they would serve the same purpose. Also, removing the tape from the spine is not as easy as removing from the gate.

~sty


Partner euroford


Feb 9, 2006, 2:53 PM
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i like ovals at several key spots for aiding.

petzl 'ok' screwlock ovals connect my daisy's to my aiders and my daisy's/footloops to my jugs.

petzl 'owall' keynose ovals connect my aiders to my gear.

i keep one loose BD oval on each jug so when i can i stick it through the top hole of my jug to 'lock' the ascenders onto the rope.

i have two sets of hooks, these are each racked on a BD oval so for continous hooking i can clip one of each set easily into the end of each set of aiders.

all heads, nuts, rivet hangers, ect (anything that gets a draw and not an individual biner) is racked on ovals.

i use what i call an 'aid draw' (copyright 2006 euroford, inc. LOL), each of my draws is composed of a BD ovalwire on the gear end and a BD nuetrino on the rope end with an 8" bd spectra dogbone in between.

basicly, ovals are used for racking 'loose' items and for any biner thats parts of the 'movement system'. i find biner shift on sketchy aid to be very unsettling.

some things that i do, and have mentioned here are a little contradictory to others views. most aiders do everything they can to get every bit of reach they can on each move. some of my methods sacrafice a biners length of upward reach to make the system faster.

example, i rack all of my hooks in two sets, each on a biner. for hooking i clipe my aiders to the biner, not the sling on the hook. sure you loose a biner length of movement, but hook selection, especially for multiple hook placements in a row is MUCH faster. i like to move fast when i'm on hooks. i figure less time spent on hooks is a good thing.

example 2, i use a ton of quickdraws and i place one on everything except a cam. i always try to look ahead a couple of placements, after unclipping my daisy/aiders from a placement if i know i'll be next using it on a nut i'll clip it directly into a draw on my harness. after placing the nut i'll take the draw off my harness and clip it into the nut with the daisy/aiders already on the draw. i loose 1 biner length by not clipping directly into the nut but make better time by conservation of motion.

if your upset about loosing 1 biner length of reach then your taking to long to get up into your topsteps!!


stymingersfink


Feb 9, 2006, 6:14 PM
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i like ovals at several key spots for aiding.
petzl 'ok' screwlock ovals connect my daisy's to my aiders and my daisy's/footloops to my jugs.
petzl 'owall' keynose ovals connect my aiders to my gear.

i keep one loose BD oval on each jug so when i can i stick it through the top hole of my jug to 'lock' the ascenders onto the rope.

check. kind'a.

In reply to:
i have two sets of hooks, these are each racked on a BD oval so for continous hooking i can clip one of each set easily into the end of each set of aiders.

So, one set of hooks on one oval, the other set of hooks on the other? I sling mine with two different colors of sling material for easy seperation. I also like to store them on my rack within a small nylon stuff-sack (from a pair of ski skins in this case) to keep them from hooking everything. The copper-heads along with punches get covered by a seperate bag. So, typically, I'll set a 30cm runner up to hang from my right side towards the back. on this runner i will clip my hooks chain, then place the bag over them and cinch down the draw string. My c-heads are racked by size on a couple of biners, then chained together so they may be clipped by a single biner, again placing the other bag over the whole lot of them. the runner allows me to throw them around back and out of the way, or around front where I can select what I need w/o having to unclip the runner from my harness.
In reply to:
all heads, nuts, rivet hangers, ect (anything that gets a draw and not an individual biner) is racked on ovals.

check. (see fine print regarding heads above.)

In reply to:
i use what i call an 'aid draw' (copyright 2006 euroford, inc. LOL), each of my draws is composed of a BD ovalwire on the gear end and a BD nuetrino on the rope end with an 8" bd spectra dogbone in between.

I back clean pretty agressively where it will not interfere with my second (or myself) being able to clean with relative ease. I also tend to solo-aid most pitches, even with a partner handy. This means I don't have to worry about rope drag so much and can clip most pieces directly. There are few pieces which I may need to extend due to hazardous rock conditions, but these are mitigated on a case by case basis.

In reply to:
basicly, ovals are used for racking 'loose' items and for any biner thats parts of the 'movement system'. i find biner shift on sketchy aid to be very unsettling.

Me too. I should swap out those rocklocks for that petzl 'OK' oval.

In reply to:
some things that i do, and have mentioned here are a little contradictory to others views. most aiders do everything they can to get every bit of reach they can on each move. some of my methods sacrafice a biners length of upward reach to make the system faster.

if the moves aren't that far apart and it's faster, then why slow yourself down? I've frustrated myself on more than a few occasions where by stretching to make a couple of placements in a row, I am unable to reach the third placement without making an intermediate placement a foot above the one I'm standing on. Argh!

In reply to:
example, i rack all of my hooks in two sets, each on a biner. for hooking i clipe my aiders to the biner, not the sling on the hook. sure you loose a biner length of movement, but hook selection, especially for multiple hook placements in a row is MUCH faster. i like to move fast when i'm on hooks. i figure less time spent on hooks is a good thing.

Stay away from ZM then. Either that or get REAL comfortable with 'em real quick.

http://i35.photobucket.com/...Wall/th_DSCN0354.jpgZM P5 A3+hooks.
try 40-50' of horizontal hooks. These were the 3rd and 4th of about 25 hook moves at the start of P5 ZM. The new "supertopo" says something about improbable hook move over a roof... with the loose block that was hanging there, I opted to go around. Pretty spicy, either way. (the finishing mantle onto the ramp took me 20 minutes to psyche myself up for, I'd have rather hooked my way up the entire pitch at that point.)

http://i35.photobucket.com/...Wall/th_DSCN0365.jpgFinishing under the 9o'clock roof (15' of horizontal drilled hooks), with 10' to the anchor to go. FWIW, I feel more secure on a drilled hook than i do on a c-head or some fixed nuts. I don't have to test it, and I know it's not going anywhere. In fact, sometimes I have felt an overwhelming sense of relief at stepping onto one!



I like to place my oval with 4-5 hooks on it on my ready-loop at the front of my chest harness. If I'll be making several of the same hook move in a row, I'll unclip the hook and clip it directly to my daisy/aider locker.

In reply to:
example 2, i use a ton of quickdraws and i place one on everything except a cam. i always try to look ahead a couple of placements, after unclipping my daisy/aiders from a placement if i know i'll be next using it on a nut i'll clip it directly into a draw on my harness. after placing the nut i'll take the draw off my harness and clip it into the nut with the daisy/aiders already on the draw. i loose 1 biner length by not clipping directly into the nut but make better time by conservation of motion.

Like I said above, I back-clean agressively when possible, and clip most peices directly with an oval. Saves me 'biners, and sling clusterage. Notice 'em hanging off the back of my harness in the hooks photo? I rarely need them but when i do, it's an old "8" device teathered long enough to reach my hip by some 4mm perlon. It accomodates 4 biners quite easily: 1 for long slings, 2 for shorties, 3 for screamers and 4 for lower-out tie-off slings.


In reply to:
if your upset about loosing 1 biner length of reach then your taking to long to get up into your topsteps!!

either that or you're vertically challenged (Stretch!)

but in the end, it's all about having fun and playing safe, right?... and scaring the shit out of yourself!


ricardol


Feb 10, 2006, 10:28 AM
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dude -- those are pretty sick pictures ..

about mexi-lockers ..

i have several uses for them .. (but never used them on lead) -- i've used them to "lock" the carabiners that hold my clusterfuck lines to the hauling point (on top of the pig)

also to "lock" carabiners that hold stuff like the poop tube -- or the trash bag -- or some other piece that is not essential .. (ie, dont want to waste a real locker on).


Partner kimgraves


Feb 10, 2006, 2:10 PM
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Why ovals for aid?

I have a grand total of three aid pitches under my belt, but it quickly became apparent why you need ovals.

When I first started to aid, all I had (because I'm a cheap bastard) were DB Quicksilver's. It wasn't possible to clip both ladders plus the rope into the biner on the pro. There just wasn't enough clearance.

Luckly I had 30 odd Chouinard Ovals left over from a past life. Tom Frost told me that he specifically designed the biner with enough clearance so that you could clip two biners plus an 11mm rope. He also designed the biner so it would open under body weight. And the non shifting keeps you from putting more of a test than you intend on marginal pro (being a C1 climber, I wouldn't know about that.)

The problem with the old Chouinard is that they're heavy, so we've been replacing them with BD Wiregate ovals which are even better than the original Chouinards. And they're even cheaper than the quicksilver... which appeases the "cheap bastard" in me.

Best, Kim


paganmonkeyboy


Feb 10, 2006, 2:21 PM
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It wasn't possible to clip both ladders plus the rope into the biner on the pro. There just wasn't enough clearance.

I've been playing with a ladder and an alpine aider per biner X2 (yeah, these are ovals) so I only have one biner on each piece at a time - if I want to use the ladder, I just use the ladder, if I want to split my feet I can slip one into the alpine aider and rest or something. this means only one biner for the aiders on the piece. I don't clip the previous piece till I am on the next one, so I can unclip the daisy and aider, clip the rope, and start moving up on the next piece without filling up any biner in particular - keeps it a little cleaner that way maybe. the clusterf*ck on the harness - now that is another story...

I might go to 2 ladders per biner at some point - maybe add a seven step to each 6 for those big reachy moves where you wanna bounce on a piece without having to climb all the way off of the last one...dunno...


detonator123


Feb 10, 2006, 2:24 PM
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Thanks for the info, but I don't understand if you clip the aiders straight into the piece, or do you clip into a biner that is already clipped into a piece? Also, couldn't you use any type of biner for clipping the rope into?

On another note do you have a pair of aiders w/ a daisy connected w/ one biner, or do you move the aiders and daisies up separately?


Partner kimgraves


Feb 10, 2006, 2:28 PM
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I don't clip the previous piece till I am on the next one...

This sounds like your cruisin' for a bruisin', dude. If the next piece blows, you'll take a static fall onto your daisy - something you might want to avoid. You clip the rope to your piece when you get waist high to the piece prior to placing or testing the next piece. Even a 4 foot static fall can cause all types of internal injury - or that's what I learned.

Best, Kim


paganmonkeyboy


Feb 10, 2006, 2:43 PM
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In reply to:
I don't clip the previous piece till I am on the next one...

This sounds like your cruisin' for a bruisin', dude. If the next piece blows, you'll take a static fall onto your daisy - something you might want to avoid. You clip the rope to your piece when you get waist high to the piece prior to placing or testing the next piece. Even a 4 foot static fall can cause all types of internal injury - or that's what I learned.

Best, Kim

I understand you completely Kim - daisy falls can wreck you. I've heard terrible things from even a 3 footer onto a bolt with a runner...

Follow me here. I'm on one set of aiders on a single biner clipped directly to a piece usually, but sometimes on another biner. My daisy is on this piece until I place the next one. I place the next one and clip daisy to it, clipping the last piece to the rope as soon as I remove daisy (in theory this is one smooth motion...). I can either weight the daisy or clip a set of aiders to it as well, but in any case I have to weight it.

Hmm - I guess it is more accurate to say I don't clip into the piece until I take daisy off it, now that I write it all out. I'm bouncing on a piece with daisy and aider, standing half on another with aider and rope - make more sense here ? So I guess you are right :D

in any case I'm keeping either one biner, rope and maybe fifi on the lower piece to high step (still working on that t-step thingy) in one biner. this isn't always an oval, but it is always a solid gate and not a wire...
and one biner and one for daisy on the higher piece til I get up, unclip daisy, and repeat the whole thing...

now i wanna go climb...see tom climb. climb tom, climb !


Partner kimgraves


Feb 10, 2006, 4:37 PM
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Follow me here...

Hi Tom,

Actually, I can't. But that's because I can't read not for your lack of trying. :wink: But it doesn't matter. As long as you're aware of the issue of a fall onto a static line and your sequence takes that into account, it's all good. There are a multitude of ways to skin the cat.

Best, Kim


ricardol


Feb 10, 2006, 5:32 PM
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I like the Omega Pacific Dovals .. cool color .. except that it sometimes can be hard to have 2 biners + the rope through them --

i've had biner shift happen on shifty pieces -- and luckily it hasn't blown the placement yet -- but i guess it could.

.. the best setup for clipping aiders to pieces i've yet experienced is this:

2 aiders
1 adj. daisy per aider

each aider on its own lead biner.

------

clip aider to piece
clip 2nd aider to lead biner of 1st aider.

works great once you get the swing of it.

---

using 2 aiders instead of 4 cleans things up a bunch.


tom: sounds like you move your aiders and your daisies independently ... to me that seems like it would take a longer time than just leaving the daisy attached to the aider and moving the aider all at once..

uh --

i left out one part of my system..

an adj. fifi -- which is what i use to adjust myself -- it gets clipper to the piece after the 1st aider has been clipped.. (usually to the lead biner on the 1st aider)


stymingersfink


Feb 11, 2006, 10:36 PM
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In reply to:
dude -- those are pretty sick pictures ..

about mexi-lockers ..

i have several uses for them .. (but never used them on lead) -- i've used them to "lock" the carabiners that hold my f--- lines to the hauling point (on top of the pig)

also to "lock" carabiners that hold stuff like the poop tube -- or the trash bag -- or some other piece that is not essential .. (ie, dont want to waste a real locker on).

thanks. it was a good time fer shure... gotta thank Alan too for snapping them.

Here's a little shortcut I came up with on that trip too, for moving quickly up rivit ladders where you will not be leaving gear behing.

I had a hook still on my locker, and decided to use the sling from it to make the next move. no hassle with a wire rivit hanger, and since you're moving straight up anyway it won't screw your second on the cleaning.
You can see me here standing on it:

http://i35.photobucket.com/...Wall/th_DSCN0385.jpg
Mexi-lockers:

THE ABSOLUTE MUST DO
when using mexi-lockers is to leave the tail taped back on itself as a pull tab. Your partner will HATE you if you do otherwise, as well as screwing up your pre-placed tape tab.


Since most of you probably carry a small roll of duct tape on lead anyway, you can make one in situ, but I like making some m-lockers up while watching tv the week before departure. I wouldn't use them any time when opening the biner quickly may become imperitive.


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