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cosmin
Feb 11, 2006, 7:56 AM
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Hi, How would you grade an alpine route with the following specs: -unexplored/undeveloped area (Eastern Tibet) -2 days approach on foot from the nearest road - 4600m alt - 270m, 6a, A0, M4 - no glacier travel Thanks Cosmin
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ryko
Feb 11, 2006, 8:04 PM
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One of the better guidebooks I have used for alpine climbing lists both the approach and climb individually. If you spent two days trekking in without a trail, dodging wild yaks and jumping over boulders, but only spent four hours on the climb, I think something along the lines of Approach Grade IV, Route Grade II would be in order. Opinions vary, do how you think it should be. Or you could just not bother rating it and allow any subsequent climber to do it for you. The experience of the climb rather than the braggado is most important.
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cosmin
Feb 11, 2006, 8:10 PM
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Thanks. I was thinking about the Euro grading system - D, TD, ED ... The approach was two days - we spent three days on the wall, including the retreat. C
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toml
Feb 13, 2006, 11:33 PM
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Normally the French Alpine grading system is actually determined by the technical difficulty but takes into account the mountain factors. 6a would be around TD+ or ED-. With the mixed and A0 moves, you'd be ED- or ED I'd think. (TD climbs usually have maximum difficulties in the 5 to 6a range; ED tends to have 6 obl). Because of its remoteness it would be maybe a grade V on the engagement factor (euro-style Grade V). The European grading may not be relevant though as the engagement factor assumes that any remote climb is particularly long (it's just not possible to be 2 days from a town, hut, or cable car in the Alps...) Regional rating systems tend to be most useful for that region - French/Alpine commitment grades are less relevant in the wilderness; Scottish grades don't apply very well in New England; Alaskan grades measure pretty much just the commitment. You might do better considering a New Zealand grade. You spent 3 days on a 270 meter route? A0?
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cosmin
Feb 14, 2006, 12:30 AM
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Thanks! This was really helpful and the kind of answer i was looking for. It felt around TD and was looking to see other opinions. Cheers
In reply to: You spent 3 days on a 270 meter route? A0? A third of the first day was spent on easy angled terrain from ABC to the wall proper but in deep snow. The last day included the descent as well. Route finding, cleaning or triggering small avalanches on some slabs so i can climb them and alowing enough time to set up the bivy while light shortened the day. I counted 3 days from ABC and return (21-31 Jan) which i consider to be the honest time we did the route but i guess on the wall proper we spent only half a day or less on the 29th, the full day of 30th and the morning of 31st when mostly descending. This is why on my original postin i put only the lenght of the actual line on the wall. A0 = I stepped into a sling clipped into a 0.75 camalot to get extra reach to a section with holds I could use.
In reply to: did you mean to say retreat or did you really mean descent? Sorry - i meant 'descent', but yes, retreat wasn't far from it either. We still had 400 m of wall above but we decided to return after we climbed the W buttress of it. To carry on would have involved sections of proper aid and we didn't have the rack for it. The line we put up is logical and doesn't look unnnatural to end it where we did but after a short traverse one still has at least 400m above to the summit.... Cosmin
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alpinestar
Feb 16, 2006, 9:04 AM
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Sounds very cool!! Do you have pictures of the route?
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akicebum
Feb 18, 2006, 8:15 PM
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I'll pass on some great advice given to me by one of the worlds better alpinists. When you are unsure about the overal grade list the length, steepest angle of the ice, and the hardest rock move. People climbing an alpine route should be able to identify objective hazards on their own. Before you attach a Ed- to that route consider that Deprivation on the North Buttress of Mt. Hunter is only ED+. That looks like great ascent, congradulations.
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tim
Feb 18, 2006, 10:00 PM
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If the Tempest were an alpine route, Brutus' topo would be a perfect guideline :-)... In all seriousness, how could a 7 pitch route (M4, A0) be grade VI? The approach sounds quite arduous, but traditionally that is not factored into the rating of a technical route. Not trying to put down your first ascent, just a thought about the commitment grade you chose for it. Looks like a beautiful line, and bold. Congratulations on your FA! It is doubly inspiring since it's a big line that went at a grade that a mortal like me could climb. Cheers.
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cosmin
Feb 18, 2006, 11:37 PM
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Thank you to the last two posts for their contribution. I will make a note here that I am Romanian (E European) and our way of grading is slightly different from the N American one. On the other hand Bob is American…. I appreciated the difficulty of each pitch the way I climbed it – I graded M4 the hardest move I made with tools and crampons (actually climbed with crampons and one tool in my right and left on crimps) and with 6a the hardest move I made without using the tools. The ice we encountered wasn’t enough to warrant a WI grading. Overall it seemed to me like a TD but I wanted to see if my guesstimate match what others think. Still I chose not to include it in the route description but only to mention the technical difficulty I estimate at the time of the climb. I presume that Bob, being familiar with the N American commitment grading, chose the grade VI in the description based on his experience. As any grade it is arguable and flicking through J Lowe’s ‘Ice World’ I see that our climb should have been ‘2000 feet or more’ to qualify for a grade VI according to that description and I will pass this onto Bob so he can take it into consideration. I think grading, at least in the circumstances concerning our FA, is useful to indicate to potential visitors what they might have in store and not what they will necessarily find ‘ad literam’. In the case of our climb the remoteness is a serious issue when you think about pushing your limits since evac is not via the cable car nor heli; the technical grade, mentioned together with the fact that our line was probably the easiest way up, might invite parties who would not want to take a two day walk just for a pile of choss. This way they’ll know the ‘plum’ is still there and at least at one grade higher than our route, if not more… Cosmin PS – We had a third member in our team, a local Tibetan: He San Ge. He wasn’t on the wall but his positive mood, endless energy and hard-work made our climb and return a safe and much less strenuous business.
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FabienenCordoba
Nov 9, 2009, 4:13 PM
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Hi Cosmin! This recent article on camptocamp.org might help : http://www.camptocamp.org/articles/188413/en The first question is whether the 6a is the hardest pitch/move you HAVE to do to get to the top or can you French-free your way up? Alternatively, you might mean that F6a is the level of ability you need to safely climb the rock sections of the route. Following their logic, 6a climbing would make it TD- at least. You then add up to half a grade for committment, complexity of approach/descent. You description seems to imply that only committment is really important. The approach is not very complex or dangerous relative to 270m of 6a climbing. If protection is easy, perhaps TD would be appropriate to take into account the committment and the fact that there is some mixed climbing (you need to carry a lot more gear). If protection is difficult, then upgrade to TD+.
(This post was edited by FabienenCordoba on Nov 9, 2009, 4:14 PM)
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adnix
Nov 11, 2009, 8:35 PM
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Typical short TD. I wouldn't call it a grade VI route, it's more like grade IV or at most grade V. Half Dome NW face is one of the easiest VI's and it has 20+ pitches. If you had done the whole face it could have been grade VI.
(This post was edited by adnix on Nov 11, 2009, 8:43 PM)
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