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Another Alien falls apart! Not a dimpled one.
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billcoe_


Feb 20, 2006, 7:49 AM
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Another Alien falls apart! Not a dimpled one.
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There is the first report of an Alien failure of after CCH has supposedly changed the methodology to include 100% testing.

Cam falls apart at the LOWER swege after a tug.

Report here:http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/...16a30eaf3#Post547978

Speaking for myself, I would pay @$10 to have each of mine tested on a machine, does anyone know if this service is being offered by anybody.

Edited to add, there needs to be additional info learned about all of this, no doubt.

I personally think it is important to lay the info out there and put it out as far and as wide as quickly as possible. It only takes 1 failure to result in a fatality, (AS IN A TOTALLY NEEDLESS FATALITY).

I would not want to see that happen. Nobody wants CCH's reputation to be sullied needlessly, and I think ALL of us agree that having a fatality or 2 would have horrifiying consequeses both for any families and friends involved and for CCH itself.

I wish there was a way we could check the strength locally. For myself, there are routes I like to do where a fall and a single piece failing might result in a groundfall. If I could just use nuts I'd be fine, but I can think of a couple of instances where its cams exclusivly. I do not relish that thought, and suspect that using Metolius TCUs would be the solution, cause those things both have a great cam angle for holding power, and I have not ever heard of a failure. BUT, I own a bunch of Aliens and don't want them regulated to doorstops.

But that's me, your results may vary. As I said in the other post, looking for more information, as Joseph details later in this thread, you are welcome to sue me if you don't like reading what I said, as I will not under any circumstances retract it unless you prove that the OP on Cascadeclimbers is a hoax (highly - highly doubtful at this time).


Partner one900johnnyk


Feb 20, 2006, 7:59 AM
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Re: Another Alien falls apart! Not a dimpled one. [In reply to]
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i'll probably get flamed by the usual alienphiles but fuck cch man, they have serious qc issues. i wish i never bought any of their cams. what a waste of money, i can never put another alien in a crack and feel solid about that shit any more...


breaksnclimbs


Feb 20, 2006, 8:04 AM
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Re: Another Alien falls apart! Not a dimpled one. [In reply to]
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Damn and just bought the 5 smallest sizes last night!! :roll:
Blk, Blu, Grn, Ylw, Red , to double up my sizes!!
:cry:


bobruef


Feb 20, 2006, 8:09 AM
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Re: Another Alien falls apart! Not a dimpled one. [In reply to]
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Enter the Cult-

C'mon, climbing is dangerous...

Gear fails, get over it!...

They're a small company...

Give them time to deal with the previous issue...

By complaining about CCH, you hurt the climbing community!!!...

Whatever, its probably a hoax!!...

bla bla bla! :roll:


And the CCH f--- up list grows on.


jakedatc


Feb 20, 2006, 8:18 AM
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Re: Another Alien falls apart! Not a dimpled one. [In reply to]
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haha bob.. trophy this man

what disturbs me the most is the lack of batch #? unless the guy has no clue where to look on aliens.. As with the last one i think pics should be posted before things get too carried away.


microbarn


Feb 20, 2006, 8:46 AM
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Re: Another Alien falls apart! Not a dimpled one. [In reply to]
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In reply to:
By complaining about CCH, you hurt the climbing community!!!...

except for the above statement...you might have a convincing arguement based loosely on fact.


guanoboy


Feb 20, 2006, 8:57 AM
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Re: Another Alien falls apart! Not a dimpled one. [In reply to]
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I personally have 6 years of 'in the field' experience with aliens - aid and free. I've ripped other cams in whippers, but never an alien. I've ripped aliens, but only while bounce-testing dubious placements. I also tend to 'double up' pro where groundfall potential exists. I'm not saying every piece they have ever made is perfect, but I've had great experiences and I wouldn't hinge my life on one piece whether its BD, CCH, or HB.


Partner tgreene


Feb 20, 2006, 9:12 AM
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Re: Another Alien falls apart! Not a dimpled one. [In reply to]
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Billcoe, you need to be VEEEEEERY careful about this thread, because nowhere in the OP was it ever stated that this cam wasn't dimpled. It stated it a was as of a few weeks ago as well as later stating there were no numbers on it aside from the sticker.

It was YOU that asked a question in regards to the lack of a dimple, and did so in the form of a statement rather than an actual question. The OP then responded but said nothing in regards to your dimple comment.

You then post a thread over here that's entitled "Another Alien falls apart! Not a dimpled one." as if it were in deed a factual statement, when it is not, based upon the posts on the other board. :evil:

FWIW: You'll be lucky if CCH doesn't smack you with a libel suit. :idea:


Partner gunksgoer


Feb 20, 2006, 9:15 AM
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Re: Another Alien falls apart! Not a dimpled one. [In reply to]
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Thats fucked up.

Id like to try and think that cch isnt totally lax about safety and quality control, but its starting to seem like they just dont give a shit. How comforting.


Partner j_ung


Feb 20, 2006, 9:28 AM
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Re: Another Alien falls apart! Not a dimpled one. [In reply to]
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In reply to:
FWIW: You'll be lucky if CCH doesn't smack you with a libel suit. :idea:

CCH has bigger fish to fry right now.


healyje


Feb 20, 2006, 9:33 AM
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Re: Another Alien falls apart! Not a dimpled one. [In reply to]
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Yes, we have had a report of a swage pulling on one returned "a few weeks ago". According to the CC.com original poster it as replacement for one he had sent in for repair two years before. It was not a "dimpled" cam involved in the recall. We have not gotten any further details at this time or photo verification at from this poster both of which hopefully be forthcoming.


Partner holdplease2


Feb 20, 2006, 9:38 AM
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Re: Another Alien falls apart! Not a dimpled one. [In reply to]
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Hi Healyje:

You are now referring to you as part of "We", are you working for/reporting for CCH in an offical capacity now?

If so, do you officially confirm that this was not a dimpled alien? And that there was, in fact, another mode of failure not at the head this time, where a Braze is suspect, but at the loop, where a swage is required?


Thank you for your help.

-Kate.


mtat76


Feb 20, 2006, 9:41 AM
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Re: Another Alien falls apart! Not a dimpled one. [In reply to]
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I agree with bobruef - give them some time to deal with the previous issue. And why did it take him two years to figure out where his replacement cam is?

In reply to:
I'm not saying every piece they have ever made is perfect, but I've had great experiences and I wouldn't hinge my life on one piece whether its BD, CCH, or HB.

Amen to that. In this sport, all risks are calculated; but, anyone willing to trust their life to a single piece of gear is a fool (though, in trad we're probably all fools at one point or another).


healyje


Feb 20, 2006, 10:02 AM
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Re: Another Alien falls apart! Not a dimpled one. [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Hi Healyje:

You are now referring to you as part of "We", are you working for/reporting for CCH in an offical capacity now?

If so, do you officially confirm that this was not a dimpled alien? And that there was, in fact, another mode of failure not at the head this time, where a Braze is suspect, but at the loop, where a swage is required?

Thank you for your help.

-Kate.

Kate,

I meant "we" as in cc.com users. I've been putting in time as an unnofficial "moderator" and backchannel go between with CCH and a few other individuals involved in the industry. A this point we know the user has a reasonable history with CC.com and has posted on aid topics in the past, but beyond that "we" have no additional details or photo yet on the CC.com thread in question.

This wan't a "dimpled cam recall" transaction, but a replacement for a trigger sheath repair. What we know thus far is this is different failure modality, this time with the loop swaging. We do not know if it was a "dimpled" unit though from the description in the post it sounds unlikely. I am hoping the original poster gets back with us today with additional details and possibly a photo. It would be most helpful to know exactly what markings are on the cam, a much more exact chronology, and a photo. The chronology would be particularly useful as would the state of it's "dimpleness". A chronology would allow us to sort out where in the cycle of things relative to the Brazing Recall this transpired and maybe the origins of this particular cam.


elvislegs


Feb 20, 2006, 10:22 AM
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heh. man, what a mess. seriously.

i bet you could build a whole damn house with the bricks that dave and co. have shit in the past couple of months.


bobruef


Feb 20, 2006, 11:06 AM
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In reply to:
I agree with bobruef - give them some time to deal with the previous issue.

:lol: Apparently I need to lay it on a little thicker next time :lol:

go back and read my post, but flank it w/ some [scarcasm][/scarcasm] coding.


jred


Feb 20, 2006, 12:11 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I agree with bobruef - give them some time to deal with the previous issue.

:lol: Apparently I need to lay it on a little thicker next time :lol:

go back and read my post, but flank it w/ some [scarcasm][/scarcasm] coding.
Yeah, I bust a gut too when I read that one.


Partner climboard


Feb 20, 2006, 3:56 PM
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Re: Another Alien falls apart! Not a dimpled one. [In reply to]
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In reply to:
I personally have 6 years of 'in the field' experience with aliens - aid and free. I've ripped other cams in whippers, but never an alien. I've ripped aliens, but only while bounce-testing dubious placements. I also tend to 'double up' pro where groundfall potential exists. I'm not saying every piece they have ever made is perfect, but I've had great experiences and I wouldn't hinge my life on one piece whether its BD, CCH, or HB.

Well, if you used aliens manufactured in the past year to 'double up' your pro you may well have hinged your life on one piece without knowing it.


Partner one900johnnyk


Feb 20, 2006, 4:12 PM
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Re: Another Alien falls apart! Not a dimpled one. [In reply to]
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In reply to:
FWIW: You'll be lucky if CCH doesn't smack you with a libel suit. :idea:

i'd put money on you being dead wrong there tgreene.... lots of it, too...

cch sucks my nuts their gear can't be trusted give me a libel suit. what a bunch of sorry pieces of shit. here guys buy this product of mine that might kill you i don't know for sure but fuck it!

i love the stories of guys who've been climbing for years and years and say they've never had a problem with aliens and then conclude they're plenty safe. what the fuck is wrong w/you people? ugh.


okay i'm done now. i will be throwing those pieces of shit in the garbage can immediately


giza


Feb 20, 2006, 4:16 PM
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okay i'm done now. i will be throwing those pieces of s--- in the garbage can immediately

Go ahead and send those pieces of shit my way. PM me for shipping address.


alleyehave


Feb 20, 2006, 4:17 PM
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okay i'm done now. i will be throwing those pieces of s--- in the garbage can immediately

Or you could send them to me for a small price :D


skinner


Feb 20, 2006, 7:14 PM
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Re: Another Alien falls apart! Not a dimpled one. [In reply to]
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I returned a dimpled alien last week with the same round sticker on the trigger. What was on it wore off long ago, but I do remember that it was a single letter in quotes, hand written in pen.
I hope this doesn't indicate a repair.. as I had purchased this alien as new.


Partner one900johnnyk


Feb 20, 2006, 7:28 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
okay i'm done now. i will be throwing those pieces of s--- in the garbage can immediately

Go ahead and send those pieces of s--- my way. PM me for shipping address.
sorry, but unlike cch i'm not in the business of distributing faulty, life endangering products


giza


Feb 20, 2006, 8:13 PM
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In reply to:
cch sucks my nuts their gear can't be trusted give me a libel suit. what a bunch of sorry pieces of s---. here guys buy this product of mine that might kill you i don't know for sure but f--- it!

i love the stories of guys who've been climbing for years and years and say they've never had a problem with aliens and then conclude they're plenty safe. what the f--- is wrong w/you people? ugh.


okay i'm done now. i will be throwing those pieces of s--- in the garbage can immediately

While you're throwing out your Aliens, make sure to throw out all the rest of your gear. Based on the list of recalls below, you surely can't trust any of the climbing gear manufacturers.

01/12/06 CCH Alien Cam Recall
09/23/05 Omega Five-O Screwgate Locking Carabiner
03/14/05 Montrail Ice 9 Crampon Recall
12/15/04 Simond Ice Screw Recall
08/01/04 Metolius X Comp Carabiners
07/15/04 Wild Country Helium Carabiners
04/01/04 Petzl E71 DUO LED 8
03/18/04 Camp Tri Cam Defect Notice
01/30/04 Leeper Hanger Warning - Removal Urged
04/17/03 Black Diamond Bionic Crampon Return for Inspection
01/15/03 Black Diamond Telemark Binding Recalled
11/07/02 Splitter Gear Splitter Cam
06/07/02 Omega Pacific Quik-Lok Carabiners
04/12/02 Black Diamond Rage Ice Tool Recalled
03/13/02 1997 Black Diamond Superlock Carabiners
01/26/02 Component Replacement: Android Ice Axe Leash
05/01/00 Black Diamond Skylounge Portaledge
03/10/99 Trango Picks for Captain hook and Claw Ice Tools
03/07/97 Black Diamond Carbon Fiber Black Prophets
02/01/97 Grivel Rambo Crampons
12/15/96 PMI Dynamic 8.8mm Ropes
12/15/96 Metolius 3-D Harnesses
11/27/96 Black Diamond Black Prophet Bent Shaft Ice Tools
05/17/96 Omega Pacific Std Symmetrical Non-Locking D Carabiners


billl7


Feb 20, 2006, 8:25 PM
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Re: Another Alien falls apart! Not a dimpled one. [In reply to]
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The OP provided an update on size, dimple status (none), and circumstances. Sez pics probably on Tuesday (tomorrow).

... starting to feel like a product line of ladders being fixed thusly:

* oops, #2 rung broke - replace all #2 rungs!
* oops, #7 rung broke - replace all #7 rungs!
* oops, #1 rung broke - replace all #1 rings!
...

My guess is that CCH did pull test the brazed joint - before the thumb loop was assembled. For example: mount the axle end in a fixture, grip the cable end in a vice or whatever, and pull. If it holds together, cut the cable to it's final length (removing any marred cable) and form the thumb loop. Very reasonable way to pull-test every braze joint.

And before anyone faults CCH for not pull-testing the thumb loop, first make a suggestion for how to do the pull-test without marring the cable and/or any comfort-coating around that area.

The next "rung on the ladder" would be the cams: do they do the pull test with the cams biting into something as they would in the field. But 100% full-assembly pull-tests are probably not practical given the above "marring" issue.

No doubt CCH feels this more than anyone: it's not practical to "inspect in" quality after the product has already been made (edit: not claiming that as mine - recalled it from some QC document or book or such and it seems fitting).

Bill

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