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BACKUP on a tube belay device?
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cmajercz


Feb 20, 2006, 9:07 AM
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BACKUP on a tube belay device?
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Anyone have any methods for a simple back up for belaying a leader using a tube device? Trad areas with loose rock make me pretty nervous sometimes, but I hate the idea of lugging up a Gri Gri as it only serves one function.

Thanks,
C


oklahoma_climber


Feb 20, 2006, 9:27 AM
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I suppose you could put a prussik above the belay tube and do it like a rappel backup only upside-down.

It always seemed to me that I was the belay device by paying attention and the equipment backs me up. (I'm one of these people that uses a GriGri as if it never autoblocks. I'm just not that trusting) But maybe that's not quite what you're asking.


cmajercz


Feb 20, 2006, 9:42 AM
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Re: back on a tube belay device? [In reply to]
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Well. I have a history of seizures. While I am medicated and haven't had one in years, it still worries me sometimes. Just thought perhaps there might be some "back up" ideas for an ATC or Reverso.


oklahoma_climber


Feb 20, 2006, 9:57 AM
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Re: back on a tube belay device? [In reply to]
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ahhhh.... your question makes more sense now.

Let me be the first to say that I don't know.

If you'll allow me to speculate, you might look into using a prussik the same way it is used on rappel. This probably would not work on single-pitch, fast moving, sport style routes, since the prussik will likely slow down your rope feed significant. However, during trad climbing, while the rope feed is pretty slow, it seems that it should work well enough.


Partner cracklover


Feb 20, 2006, 11:14 AM
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Re: back on a tube belay device? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Anyone have any methods for a simple back up for belaying a leader using a tube device? Trad areas with loose rock make me pretty nervous sometimes, but I hate the idea of lugging up a Gri Gri as it only serves one function.

Thanks,
C

Well you could look into the TRE Sirius. It's not guaranteed to be completely auto-locking, though.

Anyway, I have a problem with your basic premise. Let's say you have the perfect backup device. What would happen if you had a siezure while belaying your leader? You are incapacitated and fall off your stance, pulling leader into lead fall. Now leader is left hanging on wall - if it's steep he may be unable to reach the wall. No way down, because the rope is locked up in your backup. Harness hang syndrome can set in fast... And what if *you're* leading?

It's up to you, but if you're really worried, maybe it would make more sense to climb in a group of three. Once you get your systems down it's quite quick, and you would always have a third person around to deal with an emergency if it arose.

GO


schnoz


Feb 20, 2006, 4:33 PM
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Re: BACKUP on a tube belay device? [In reply to]
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It sounds to me like you already know the answer. If you are that uncomfortable with the possibility of having a seizure while belaying, you should be using an auto-block.

There are several lesser known products on the market as well which auto-block. The TRE comes to mind and has the advantage of being able to belay using double ropes. There's another one which can belay double ropes as well, but the name and company who make it totally escape me at the moment.


erclimb


Feb 20, 2006, 4:49 PM
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on a single line, why not a cinch? same concept as the gri-gri but a fraction of the weight...anybody know if this is a bad idea?


patto


Feb 20, 2006, 5:04 PM
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In reply to:
Anyway, I have a problem with your basic premise. Let's say you have the perfect backup device. What would happen if you had a siezure while belaying your leader? You are incapacitated and fall off your stance, pulling leader into lead fall. Now leader is left hanging on wall - if it's steep he may be unable to reach the wall. No way down, because the rope is locked up in your backup. Harness hang syndrome can set in fast... And what if *you're* leading?

Harness hang syndrome happens to unconcious/unmoving climbers so is not a huge concern. Besides any competant leader should be able to ascent the rope and then travel down the rope. It wouldn't be easy but as long as you had prussiks/slings whatever you should be able to do it.


Personally I think a grigri would be best while it doesn't guarentee auto lock with larger rope diameters I think the safety margin is sufficient.

I would suggest if a prissik is used it should be BELOW the belay device as I struggle to see how you could quickly feed rope to you leader if the prussik is above the device. But either way could work, though I still think grigri would be better.


powen


Feb 20, 2006, 5:08 PM
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Re: BACKUP on a tube belay device? [In reply to]
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Considering your condition:

1. Lug up a gri-gri. That is, unless the person you are belaying doesn't care. Personally, I would if I were the leader. I climb with a narcoleptic sometimes... nuff said. It's about communication and trust in that situation, but seizures are a whole other ballgame.

2. Buy your partner a book on Self Rescue.

PS: A gri-gri can do more than you think... Maybe Petzl doesn't put it in the book, but you can do more than just belay a leader from the ground.

Then again, a little lighter... Trango Cinch? I'm sure there are more auto-blockers out there as well... I've only used the gri-gri though...


tweek


Feb 20, 2006, 6:24 PM
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I have tried the prussic above the tube style device and would only do it again if I had to. Bellow the belay device and if you become incapacitated the prussic will pull into the device and let the rope slide through freely (as I see it, not that there are ways around this but nothing that wouldn’t be a pain).

If you get a cinch then make sure that you get the new one with the larger trigger handle. They take a bit getting used to but there are certain situation where they are sweet. They feed very smooth and fast. Overhanging climbing is not where I like them although most moderate multi-pitch trad and such it works great. It is what I use if I think my partner is going to lob a rock off at my head. For overhanging stuff a gri-gri is my autoblock of choice. I have not used the TRE.

I’m sure aid climbers would have some great ideas related to hauling systems and the toys they use (notice I am not one of them.) Then again this defeats the purpose even more or not hauling up another piece of weight.


jeremy11


Feb 20, 2006, 6:26 PM
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Re: BACKUP on a tube belay device? [In reply to]
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just tie a bunch of overhands and clip them onto a pear biner on your belay loop (same as us rope solo guys use for backing up the not advertised as autolocking grigri :D ) then of course, untie them with your non brake hand as it gets close to the device. If its one of those slow moving trad pitches, you dont need to tie all the knots at once, just put in more as you need them.


jeremy11


Feb 20, 2006, 6:29 PM
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forgot to mention: if you are climbing in a party of three, have the third person loosely hold the brake end of the rope behind you as a backup, like I have new climbers do when teaching them.


Partner cracklover


Feb 20, 2006, 9:17 PM
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I think the OP was looking for something he could use both to belay and rappel, which is why he didn't want the gri gri, and why I suggested he consider the TRE.

In reply to:
Harness hang syndrome happens to unconcious/unmoving climbers so is not a huge concern.

You're right, it's probably not. But just the possibility of pulling a leader off is serious enough. And then if the leader were to be knocked out even briefly by the fall, and wasn't lowered to a ledge. Well anyway....

GO


powen


Feb 21, 2006, 6:19 AM
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You can rappel with a gri-gri from most two bolt anchors.


rockguide


Feb 21, 2006, 6:31 AM
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Use a camming style belay device (Gri gri or Cinch). Apart from a third person (which may be a good option), there is no way to routinely back up a lead belay with a belay tube.

Occasionally, if climbing on loose rock above the belayer, I have asked them to tie an overhand in the rope 15 feet below the device. That gives me room to move a bit past a dodgy section with a plan b if a rock takes out my belayer, but is awkward. I have asked for it two or three times and done it once.



B


tradklime


Feb 21, 2006, 2:14 PM
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In reply to:
I think the OP was looking for something he could use both to belay and rappel, which is why he didn't want the gri gri, and why I suggested he consider the TRE.
The double rope Hewbolt is another option. In my experience, the Hewbolt is a more reliable device in the long run.


tagaustatoppen


Feb 21, 2006, 3:54 PM
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I'm just wondering if a Grigri is really that much more weight to add to a trad rack or even your own harness setup? I realize that a grigri is bulky and has some weight but a b-52 or an atc or some device like that has relatively little wight. Could you not just carry both?


cam


Feb 21, 2006, 4:18 PM
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Re: BACKUP on a tube belay device? [In reply to]
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Lug a grigri????? :wtf:

Regardless of what your partner thinks of the fact that you might seizure, you owe it to him/her to suck it up and haul that great big grigri up to the cliff. Seriously, its a grigri, its not that heavy and sure you have been seizure free for some time but is it worth taking the chance? Think about it like this...say you come back to earth after a seizure and the first thing you see is your partner lying on the ground in a crumpled, broken heap. I think hindsight will make that grigri look like a much better idea. They say hindsight is always 20/20, but so is foresight when put into practice.

If your partners life is worth less than saving a few extra ounces in your pack, then by all means leave the grigri at home and adopt some silly prussic-auto-block scheme that will likely go unpracticed as I'm sure it will prove to be just as bothersome if not more-so, as hauling that huge grigri up to the cliff.

If your partners life is worth more than the very minor convenience of shaving a few ounces off your back, then clearly the grigri ought to be on your hip.

cam out.


powen


Feb 21, 2006, 4:35 PM
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In reply to:
Lug a grigri????? :wtf:

Hah. Guess my sarcasm about the "burden" was too subtle.


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