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jakk
Mar 8, 2006, 12:16 AM
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When I first went to a gym in the US after moving from Europe my jaw fell open when I was told that I had failed the belay test "because I took my brake hand of the rope". Despite many years of climbing in Europe, and feeling comfortable leading multi-pitch I had never heard of the concept of a dedicated "brake hand".
The way everyone I knew in Europe (France/Belgium) belayed a second or a top-roper was essentially in "palms down" style, except that when locking off after taking rope in, instead of putting the feeder hand below the brake hand on the rope and sliding the brake hand up without letting go, we simply put the feeder hand above the brake hand, and (don't scream) took the brake hand off the rope and placed it above the feeder hand.
So the whole sequence looks something like this (yes, I know that the figure-eight is out of fashion, these are just the only pics I could find)
http://www.ac-poitiers.fr/...photos/ph_esca21.jpg http://www.ac-poitiers.fr/...photos/ph_esca22.jpg http://www.ac-poitiers.fr/...photos/ph_esca23.jpg http://www.ac-poitiers.fr/...photos/ph_esca24.jpg http://www.ac-poitiers.fr/...photos/ph_esca25.jpg
or a little flash animation:
http://membres.lycos.fr/...suragemoulinette.htm
I have since learned to do things the proper "American" way as to not get kicked out of the gym, and I also completely understand the advantage of being able to teach a novice a simple rule like "_never_ take your brake hand off the rope". However, I personally still think the french method is perfectly safe, and definitely faster in taking rope in.
So, my question: what's the American take on the frog style technique, and: would you let anyone belay you like that?
Jakk
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korntera
Mar 8, 2006, 12:20 AM
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well according to that animation there is always a hand on the brake line and as long as there is a hand there, that can hold a fall at a moments notice you are fine. I don't see the point in the process in which there is no hand on the brake line so I don't see whats wrong with it, maybe I am missing something.
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austinclmbr
Mar 8, 2006, 12:23 AM
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I got no prob with it, so long as I am confident in the belayer. It is not so much the technique as it is the competency. If the belayer is going to catch me I don't really care how they do it jsut that they are confident enough in thier method to make it effective.
besides, throwing a wrench in the gears , making someone belay differently than they normaly do is only going to make matters worse.
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kman
Mar 8, 2006, 12:25 AM
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Your brake hand was never off the rope since one hand was always on the brake end. If some one says that your brake hand is off the rope that means your not holding it with either hand. Gymbies don't know any better though so don't worry about it.
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misanthropic_nihilist
Mar 8, 2006, 12:35 AM
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As was mentioned, competency is way more important than exact technique.
Yea, it's really easy to teach, "Your right hand NEVER comes off the rope." I have a feeling that gyms may be forced by their insurance policy to require you to belay their way.
When I'm belaying for someone working on speed climbing, I'll use what I believe is referred to as the "Aussie Style." Basically switching break hands everytime you take in slack. It's prefectly safe as long as you competent.
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charlet_poser
Mar 8, 2006, 12:40 AM
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well, having worked in a gym here in the states and having climbed a bit in France, I think I understand both sides of the argument.
Euro Method: This is a perfectly acceptable style of belaying PROVIDED (as stated above) that there is always at least one hand on the brake line to catch an unexpected fall. I have had several belayers who use this style (both French and American) and if they're comfortable with it and keep a hand on, I'm fine with it.
Gyms: There are several differnt ways of belaying, some safe and some not. Often, what is considered a "safe belay" is subjective and it would not be fair for one employee to pass a climber with a method, then another employee with different personal standards to to fail someone with the same technique. Therefore strict guidelines are setforth for a "safe" belay leaving no room for subjectivity- for example identifying a brake hand and never letting that brake hand off the rope. Like you said, this is great for newbies who are more likely to fumble and have no hand on at some point.
I think this has a lot to do with the high risk of being sued for any reason in American gyms. When I was in France, the employees just pointed to a stack of ropes on the floor and let me start leading.
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robdotcalm
Mar 8, 2006, 1:02 AM
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Thanks for this post. Never have been to France, but years ago I figured out by myself that this was a comfortable and safe way to belay as well as the traditional North American way. Good. Now if somebody complains, I can tell them it is the "officially approved French method." I'm not sure I would teach the French method to beginners. So much easier to tell them, don't take your brake hand off the rope.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
_______________________________________________________
'Tis better to have trad and failed then not to have trad at all.
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rocketsocks
Mar 8, 2006, 1:11 AM
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Looks ok to me. It's not that the "brake hand" is letting go of the rope, it's just that you're switching brake hands. As long as you always have a hand on the rope in a way that that hand can fall into a good braking position, you're fine.
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omegaprime
Mar 8, 2006, 1:33 AM
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I'm not in US, but most people here were not taught to slide the brake hand up. You can let go of your break hand once your feed hand takes over of the of the break line. Here we don't even leap frog it, n00bs are normally taught to hold back just below the feed hand.
Come to think of it, maybe I should start teaching them to slide the brake hand up instead of letting go. Seems much safer for a beginner. :)
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greenketch
Mar 8, 2006, 1:53 AM
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I would accept your technique but here's something to think about. I directed a climbing tower for a bit. We had a two climbers that arriveed at the tower with prior experience that used the same technique. In both cases the basic level staff had to come get me to evaluate the technique. Some of the folks climbing with them were also a bit uncomfortable. I usually discussed it and it came down to their use of the techniquewas good but it is harder for the guy across the room to monitor. So they used the "correct" way when belaying infront of other newbs.
So all told I would be happy to have you as a partner when I could tell if you were good. I wouldn't accept the technique if you were brand new as it more challengeing to observe if you can't be that third party.
Hope this makes some sense to ya.
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rgold
Mar 8, 2006, 2:09 AM
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In every aspect of climbing safety, the trend has been to systematize approaches. Sometimes, the principles guiding the systematization are lost and all that remains is the system, which is learned and passed on as a sacrosanct ritual without explanation. People who are taught or who learn this way are left without the guiding principles that would allow them to evaluate anything other than their catechismic approach (and it is often quite literally that, complete with acronyms that must not be questioned).
The site referenced by the OP quite sensibly says that the belayer must never let go of the braking strand. All else is an implementation detail.
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davidji
Mar 8, 2006, 2:37 AM
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In reply to: Your brake hand was never off the rope since one hand was always on the brake end.
What you encountered at the gym isn't the "american way". It may be that gym's way, or it may just be the way of that gym staff member.
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cintune
Mar 8, 2006, 2:46 AM
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:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
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maldaly
Mar 8, 2006, 3:05 AM
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Yeah, that's a cell phone he's talking into and, yeah, there's really a guy leading out on the end of that rope...
Mal
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madhardclimber
Mar 8, 2006, 5:24 AM
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The "french" style of belaying is what i use and it works very well. Its also more comfortable in my opinion and as safe if not safer then every other technique Ive seen when you do it right of course. No belay technique is safe if you do it wrong.
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dontjinxme
Mar 8, 2006, 5:39 AM
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When I first started to climb, my climbing partner taught me the method you have described. Though I have never caught a lead fall, or even attempted any type of climbing involving the word lead, I found that way perfectly comfortable.
I myself was gigged on the same method when I first went to a gym. The instructor did state that although he was personaly cool with that method, I would have to perform it the 'gym' way to get the seal of approval.
Jinx
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rockguide
Mar 8, 2006, 5:53 AM
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Safe? Yes.
It is also the way I have seen most Brits (admittedly British soldiers) belay and it is safe, fast, and very easy to teach for top roping. It may be more difficult to translate into lead belaying, I do not know.
Gyms do try to standardize systems ... and sometimes the belay tester has very limited knowledge (or is permitted to use little of their knowledge) so will push a system.
I try to adopt the local standard - if I know I can make safe catches. I try to make a case for my preference, but if it starts feeling like it is about ego, forget it. Life is too short, and gym employees have a tough enough time for too little money as it is.
Brian
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epicsaga
Mar 8, 2006, 6:10 AM
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?? what the f**k? what happens when the leader falls while your hand is off, how do you arrest the fall? If you grab the rope while its moving the rope burn will be so painful you'll let go and drop him. Maybe its no coincidence that Petzl, a French company, invented the gri gri?!
Apparently we need to re-educate a lot of Euro climbers.
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taraus_de_bull
Mar 8, 2006, 6:30 AM
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malcom, where is that picture. White horse ledge? it looks like the end of the first pitch of sliding board or one of the other routes that all start off with that first pitch?
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kricir
Mar 8, 2006, 6:38 AM
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I Never Drop Anyone!
I belay right handed, I belay left handed,
I belay the way I was taught in the gym,
I provide proper tension, I take in slack,
I switch my brake hand, just like euro Jakk!
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tisar
Mar 8, 2006, 8:33 AM
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In reply to: ?? what the f**k? what happens when the leader falls while your hand is off, how do you arrest the fall?
There's one hand 'on' all the time, so what's your point?
In reply to: If you grab the rope while its moving the rope burn will be so painful you'll let go and drop him.
The 'French way' you always got a tight grip with one hand.
If you're sliding up the hand the 'American way', you really get a hand off the rope (though just Milimeters and still ready to break). According to you the moment of doom.
Lucky enough, your fear is baseless.
In reply to: Maybe its no coincidence that Petzl, a French company, invented the gri gri?! Apparently we need to re-educate a lot of Euro climbers.
Better do your homework first... :roll:
Both methods are perfectly save if done properly. The 'French' comes handy when taking in slack very fast, the 'American' is more comfortable on the long hand... a mixture of both is... both :P
- Daniel
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daithi
Mar 8, 2006, 12:13 PM
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I don't think having your break hand off the rope (or not even having it clipped into a belay device) is much of an issue here since they appear to be "climbing" on a slightly inclined pavement (sidewalk). :)
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daithi
Mar 8, 2006, 12:19 PM
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In reply to: Apparently we need to re-educate a lot of Euro climbers.
Apparently, others need to work on their reading comprehension. There were even pictures and a flash animation provided just for you so there really is no excuse!
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