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le_bruce
Mar 11, 2006, 9:24 AM
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Anyone had a chance to give the '06 BD Cliff Cabana a run?
Opinions on the Metolius double from folks who've got experience with them? Found some helpful info by searching the forum, but nothing on the new BD yet.
I'm coughing up for one or the other, and the prospect of doing so sight unseen... just can't convince myself. If anybody in the bay area (ca) has either of these models, I'd be grateful for a chance to check them out, kick the tires, etc., either at a gym, a park, home - any old place. Of course I'd be happy to compensate for your time: belay for a day, donate a six pack, help you tune your piano, or the like.
Thanks!
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tradclmbr
Mar 11, 2006, 3:43 PM
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Bruce,
I doubt you'll find a new BD A5 style as they are not out yet, but it seems really similar (looks exactly the same, but probrably has some minor improvements) in design to NF/Anker A5, so some comparison can be made.
Ive slept in both. The Metolius spreader bar is nice for tensioning width wise, but the one night I was in it was on at a belay with a sloping ledge and the spreader bar actually got in the way and made it hard to stabilize. So that seems the potential price to pay for width tensioning. The A5 (and new BD model) rely on length tensioning. To be honest Im shocked at how much this tensioning tightens the bed (enough to stand on comfortably and stably). So its a tensioned bed without the potential problems of a bar.
check here for a pic of someone standing on an A5 http://terragalleria.com/mountain/mountain-image.bigw3425.html
Hopefully with the new BD theyve improved set up time (over the old A5). Metolius sets up faster than the A5, but the old style BD's were faster than metolius by far....so maybe theyve improved the speed of set up on their version of the A5??? maybe.
Anyway, I live in the Bay Area (El Cerrito) and have an A5 if you want to take a look at basic design, etc. as its definately the base model for new BD.
Greg
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renohandjams
Mar 13, 2006, 9:35 PM
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BD just bought anchor climbing ledges last year and their new design is a spin off of that. It looked pretty sweat at the OR show. I know they haven't been released yet, you would have to call BDEL to find out when.
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holdplease2
Mar 13, 2006, 9:58 PM
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I thought the old Anker design had metolius beat for the following reasons:
Better choices, more variety of fly (doors, diamond fly, simple fly)
Ripstop bed material
Quicklink attachements for suspension for easy clusterfuck resolution
Larger drain hole...mesh patch vs grommet
Burlier shock cord...the metolus is 1/4 inch, anker is way more, my metolius was cut...twice!
Waterproofing on bed - metolius has none, anker/BD is nice
Three pole breakdown easier to carry than two pole breakdown
On Metolius: The spreader bar is nice, but with ankers 3 pole side tubes, which were more rigid, its not really necessary, specially if you are one climber on the ledge.
On Metloius: The "cupped" corner joints make it easier to get the poles into the brackets, but they also fall out more easily when you are trying to set it up alone.
Since I got the A5, the metolius has been unused. I don't know all of the changes in the new BD, but I did work with Anker by using a sample and making some suggestions to improve usability. I have yet to see what ones were integrated, or what other additional changes might have been made.
I have both a metolius bombshelter and the A5 and have spent 30+ nights on each.
Both are awesome ledges, no doubt. But don't forget about FISH ledges, where you can save some $$, but also benefit from his years of experience with such things.
Hope this helps,
-Kate.
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euroford
Mar 13, 2006, 10:37 PM
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BD's new catalog indicates that the cabana now has an aluminum spreader bar. it should also be noted that BD dropped the price down so the metolius and BD list at the same cost.
i'm holding on to see what BD does with the fly's. i hope they make somthing simular to the ACE yosemite fly. i'd like something more bombproof than the simple fly, but that allows quick deployment unlike the diamond. BD's catalog and website show the simple and list they will offer two choices. if the yos gets deleted from the lineup i might inquire if the metolius fly work on the BD ledge.
we'll see i suppose. hopefully BD gets some shots of the fly's on the website soon.
edit: on second thought BD's catalog description does in fact sound more like the yos fly than the diamond fly. though i would think it foolish for them not to sell a comprable replacement to the diamond fly.
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holdplease2
Mar 13, 2006, 10:47 PM
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Hey Euro:
What ledge have you used on your past walls and with what fly material, as opposed to that of the simple fly?
I found the metolius to be more bomber than the simple from a material standpoint, and better because of the RF welded clip in point.
And are you sure that the spreader bar on the BD is a bed spreader bar, or is it the aluminum thing that used to be called the "Anker point" which is a "Spreader Plate" where the suspension points come together?
Far as I know, no "spreader bar" was to be included with the BD ledge...
Thanks!
-Kate.
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kimgraves
Mar 13, 2006, 11:24 PM
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Hi Kate,
I can't put my hands on my copy of the new BD catalog, but as I remember the new ledge has both a bed spreader bar and an Anker point. Catalog says it will be available late Spring.
If I find the catalog and it's otherwise, I'll edit.
Edit: Found it immediately after posting... There is a 3-hole plate where all six suspension points merge: I assume this is what you call the Anker point. The double has a spreader bar. What is gone are all the high end flys that allowed you to protect a suspended hammok below the ledge. This seems to be Yos tool rather than something for high isolated walls with pointed tops. ;-) KCG
Best, Kim
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holdplease2
Mar 13, 2006, 11:30 PM
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Coolio, thank you Kim!
I hate the spreader bar. I hope its not like the metolius, where if you don't use the spreader bar the thing falls apart.
The spreader bar gets smooshed on ledges, falls out when trying to set up, clangs around and drives me (*&#$&(@ nuts. And you can't just cut it off and throw it out because the metolius ledge is no good without it.
It is good if you have to sleep two, tho, or if you are big or something, I suppose.
-Kate.
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kimgraves
Mar 13, 2006, 11:37 PM
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K,
The single seems not to have the spreader bar. (650$ & 13.5 lbs)
K
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euroford
Mar 13, 2006, 11:40 PM
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what walls? LOL i've done a ton of aid climbing, but nothing multiday to the point. thats why i'm shopping for a ledge! see this thread.
quote from bds catalog: "6061 T-6 spreader bar on Cliff Cabana"
the metolius fly actually looks pretty nice to me, i like the packaging system and the design for the clip in point. since you own both could you check on the metolius fitment around the A5 ledge? at half the cost i might just seriously consider it even if they offer the yos style fly for the BD.
kim, your correct, the ledge has the bear paw anker point and they say 'late spring 2006'. so i hope they don't run late and allow me time to play with it before my mid-july date with he diamond.
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kimgraves
Mar 13, 2006, 11:46 PM
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One more observation:
The double is 51" wide by 84" long. The Bibler I-Tent/BD Firstlight are 48" by 82". The Firstlight is $150 cheaper and 5.5 lbs lighter than the deluxe fly. That might be the way to go for bad weather.
Kim
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le_bruce
Mar 14, 2006, 12:56 AM
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Thanks all for your input. Nothing beats that - people freely sharing of the knowledge they've accumlated through experience.
Sounds like either ledge will be a slamdunk - the devil is in the details I know, and no doubt if I could use both for a week I'd come out with a clear favorite and an index of intangibles that swayed me. But either one will work, I'm sure, and you all have given me some good perspective. I've had way positive experiences with both companies in the past to boot. Can't go wrong.
Holdplease2, Fish would be my first option were it not for special circumstances at play here.
Tradclmbr, shot you a pm. Do you have a piano? Cause I was just saying... I really don't know how to tune one.
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kimgraves
Mar 14, 2006, 1:08 AM
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If you're going to be in Yos you might also consider renting a ledge. $30/day with a 3 day minimum. A way to save some scratch for other important essentials - beer.
Best, Kim
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holdplease2
Mar 14, 2006, 1:48 AM
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Call me crazy but...I have enough trouble setting up a simple fly in rapid-deploy mode when there's a wind blowing and I'm in a hurry.
I can't imagine trying to set up a tent on a portaledge in any but the best of conditions...in which case, you probably wouldn't be setting one up.
I'd like to hear what folks who have tried it in the real world feel about setting up a tent on their portaledge to save money on a fly.
Anybody done this? Any advantages over a regular fly besides saving money?
-Kate.
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mr8615
Mar 14, 2006, 1:51 AM
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No experience here, but I'd think that setting a tent on a portaledge would invite pooling of water around the edges since it's not exact in dimensions, and the floor of the tent would probably challenge the drainability of the ledge...
Mark
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iamthewallress
Mar 14, 2006, 2:01 AM
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In reply to: No experience here, but I'd think that setting a tent on a portaledge would invite pooling of water around the edges since it's not exact in dimensions, and the floor of the tent would probably challenge the drainability of the ledge... Mark
No experience w/ a tent on a ledge either, but it seems to me that you'd need a very, very short tent to fit under the suspension.
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kimgraves
Mar 14, 2006, 3:22 AM
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In reply to: No experience here, but I'd think that setting a tent on a portaledge would invite pooling of water around the edges since it's not exact in dimensions, and the floor of the tent would probably challenge the drainability of the ledge... Mark
Hi Kate,
Using an I-tent on a ledge has been SOP for high cold walls for a while. BD's Firstlight has been used successfully for several season in high cold environments in place of the I-Tent. BD customer service swore up and down that Firstlight/A5 ledge was a viable combination for summer walls when I talked to them last season. But you're right, it hasn't caught on - I've never heard of it being tried. The reason to use it isn't cost/weight but *better protection provided by the tent. I agree with Mark's post that the waterproof floor would invite pooling. You could put in gomments but it seems the real solution would be a mesh floor - like the FISH ledges: but they are currently too small for the I-tent. I'm sure for the right price Russ would custom make the size you wanted. It seems to me that nothing changes for Russ other than the length of his tubing and the dimentions of the bed. All the machining/labor cost stays the same. When I suggested this to Russ I never heard back - go figure - sounded like a viable product to me.
Setting up the I-Tent/Firstlight is trivial. You crawl into the sack and stake out the corners from the inside. Takes < two minutes.
Best, Kim
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holdplease2
Mar 14, 2006, 3:30 AM
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Thanks for the info, Kim.
SOP for high cold walls? I never knew. If I need a tent for it, I ain't going there!
:)
-Kate.
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kimgraves
Mar 14, 2006, 3:33 AM
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Kate,
I take it, you don't like the cold. :?:
Best, Kim
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ryanb
Mar 14, 2006, 3:42 AM
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Colin Haley has a review of the firstlight at
http://www.promountainsports.com/tents-bivy.shtml#bd_firstlight
Says it is a great fast/light tent but not really weatherproof (the fabric is only water resistant...). people probably don't want to get stuck weathering a storm in it.
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holdplease2
Mar 14, 2006, 3:55 AM
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Haha, no, Kim, I climb plenty in winter.
But if theres a storm coming that is too tough for my A5 wrap around fly and bivy sack, then that storm is too tough for me, period.
And if its coming on fast? The last thing I'm going to be doing is setting up a tent.
That's just me, though, and thats why I do my punting in Yosemite*, not Baffin or Patagonia or untold other places that are hard to spell.
For 99.99999999999999999% of wall climbers, specially us internet mountaineers, a simple rain fly, bivy sack, and ledge is all we will need. I like my life to much to go where I would need more than the basics.
I'd rather climb WFLT till I'm 90 than die halfway up some thing in Patagonia at 35, with my half-deployed ass-backward "tent" whipping in the wind. :) but thats just me. All due respect to anyone who feels differently.
-Kate.
Of course Yos can be tough, but not usually. I pray for good judgement and good weather before every wall. So far the weather has held out...the judgement, not so much.
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euroford
Mar 14, 2006, 4:25 AM
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i've seen (in literature, not with my own two eyes obviously) bibler and MH tents setup on ledges many times. though i'm thinkin this is usually done where you'll be climbing and fixing several pitches and returning back to your bivy until you reach a point (after maybe several days) where you deciede to move the whole kit up the wall. at that point the team is probobly dedicating a whole day to the hauling and re deploying of the bivy.
yeah, probobly beyond the scope of us goofballs i would say.
this is definitly getting a bit off the path of our conversation, but its nice to know the option is available on the BD ledge. another reason i suppose why this is probobly the markets best 'buy it and your done' option.
the biggest probobly i see with using a tent, is that the middle fins can't be used anymore. your stuck with your smelly partner sagging against you all night. i mean, i love steve, but i don't love him ya know....
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holdplease2
Mar 14, 2006, 4:39 AM
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Oh Yeah, Euroford?
Thats not what Steve said in the "How Do I Remove Fin from Metolius Bombshelter" thread
:lol: :lol: :lol:
-Kate.
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kimgraves
Mar 14, 2006, 4:52 AM
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In reply to: ...you're stuck with your smelly partner sagging against you all night. i mean, i love steve, but i don't love him ya know....
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Current practice, for the hard core, is to bring only one sleeping bag and spoon with your partner. They say it's the best way to get over a mild case of homophobia. (is lesbiaphobia a word?)
Besides, you only need the tent in Bad weather.
This thread is beginning to read like SuperTaco....
Kim
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