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sul-pont
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Mar 17, 2006, 5:55 PM
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Fluxus and Diligentia:
First, let me say that your book is terrific. I've made a lot of changes for the better since reading it and it has made my training sessions rewarding and challenging. I have two questions about the book's content.
1) I'm having a lot of trouble with the pressing exercise. Specifically, I can't get up the slab at my gym without using my hands. This could mean:
a) I am not doing something right in terms of movement (though my training partner can't do it either, she boulders up to V4). I try various different body positions, attempt to maintain tension in my spine at the end of moves, all to no avail.
b) The footholds are too far apart.
c) The footholds are too small.
d) The angle of the wall is too steep.
I have a feeling that the trouble most likely lies in a combination of b) and c); I may try and convince the gym manager that I need to put up a 5.0 testpiece. The slab is also shaped strangely in that at its base it is about 5 feet wide and then narrows to about 8 inches at the top, making it necessary to use the vertical portions of the wall on either side. I seem to be able to get an idea of the pressing idea when blind climbing but baring finding another slab, are there other ways I can practice the pressing activity?
2) I assume that the activities within chapters are progressive, meaning that, for example, I should not jump ahead to flagging activities until I have my same-side in activities wired. However, is the entire book similarly structured, that is, should I not proceed to the exercises in chapter 5 until I have those in chapter 4 mastered?
For the record, I've been climbing for 2 years, climb mid .10, boulder V2, and am training to redpoint my first .11a in May. I have another thread in this forum with more detail on my plan.
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diligentia
Mar 21, 2006, 1:12 AM
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In reply to: 1) I'm having a lot of trouble with the pressing exercise. Specifically, I can't get up the slab at my gym without using my hands.
Your difficulties are common for this exercise and typically result from using a wall which is too steep. This may sound simplistic, but on a bet I once no handed a slab in cowboy boots. That should tell you that you're probably not misusing the exercise. If your local gym doesn't have a less steep wall see if you can get the management to add holds that stick way out. Stand on the part of the hold furthest from the wall and you will have effectively made the climbing less steep.
A second problem could very well be the vertical distance between the holds. More than a foot or so makes the no hands exercise more difficult.
In reply to: ... baring finding another slab, are there other ways I can practice the pressing activity?
You can always use the tennis balls described in the book to help steady yourself or add large holds as described above. The idea behind the press exercise is to feel the work being done by your lower body. You can do this on a steeper wall - just make sure you're saying "press" when you can feel upward movement being generated by your legs.
In reply to: 2) I assume that the activities within chapters are progressive, meaning that, for example, I should not jump ahead to flagging activities until I have my same-side in activities wired. However, is the entire book similarly structured, that is, should I not proceed to the exercises in chapter 5 until I have those in chapter 4 mastered?
There are levels to mastery. The exercises are progressive within a chapter, but we would never tell you to master balance before moving on to beginning work on body awareness or movement initiation. You should have a firm handle on establishing a base of support before moving on to turning, however. So experiment with the different exercises and try to progress across the board rather than trying to master one item at a time.
In reply to: For the record, I've been climbing for 2 years, climb mid .10, boulder V2, and am training to redpoint my first .11a in May. I have another thread in this forum with more detail on my plan.
Yes, I read your other thread. That's some regimen you've created! Personally I think you may be making this more complicated than necessary. Although I admire your dedication and desire to improve, at your level I think we can simplify your program, make it more fun, and improve the results. That said, I'll need some more information.
How about if you post your route pyramid for me here? List the hardest 15 climbs you've sent in the last year preferably outdoor but indoor will do as well.
Once you get your route pyramid together give me some idea of where you stand with regard to the performance categories on page 192, i.e. the maximum grade you can climb continuously for 20 minutes without getting pumped. Don't go out and rigorously test yourself just yet, but give me some idea of your current condition. Post this along with your pyramid.
OK, before the rest of you start sending your personal stats for me to evaluate, please realize I'm doing this one as an example. We'll be following the Self Coached Climber methodology which is described in great detail in the book.
It's up to you now, Sul.
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tobym
Mar 21, 2006, 8:12 PM
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Dan and Doug,
I would like to join the growing crew of people commending you on a great book, but can't, as despite ordering the book in August 2005, amazon.co.uk still haven't sent it to me, have emailed them, and they say the are having problems with their distributors :cry:
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harmonydoc
Mar 21, 2006, 9:02 PM
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Dan and Doug,
Amazing book (and DVD)! I'm the kind of person that likes technical explanations for things - I loved all the diagrams showing COG in relation to base of support, initiation from different movement centers, etc. I'm a 36 year old woman who just got really into climbing about 9 months ago, with current TR level somewhere in the 9s to low 10s depending on the angle/how sustained the climb is. I feel like I am at the point where I am plenty strong enough to progress if I could develop more efficiency/technique. I'm going to follow your training program (as best I can given my full time job - right now I gym climb 3X/wk, get outside about 1 weekend a month) and see where I end up by the end of the summer.
Thanks again!
:D
Celeste
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diligentia
Mar 21, 2006, 9:38 PM
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Aw shucks, guys. :oops:
Seriously though, Doug and I have been overwhelmed by the positive response for our book. We are grateful and greatly appreciate all your comments.
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fluxus
Mar 22, 2006, 2:25 AM
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In reply to: Dan and Doug, I would like to join the growing crew of people commending you on a great book, but can't, as despite ordering the book in August 2005, amazon.co.uk still haven't sent it to me, have emailed them, and they say the are having problems with their distributors :cry:
Note that the book is not in stores in the US yet either. I talked to the publisher about this a day or two ago and they say the book is still in transit. It may be that Amazon UK uses different wearhouses or uses a distributor rather than getting it directly from stackpole as Amazon USA did. So if the book is in transit now to distributors and wearhouses I guess it will be a few more days until it can be shipped to you. sucks!
-Douglas
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climb11
Mar 22, 2006, 3:23 AM
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Great Book!!
The DVD that comes with it really ties everything together, i think I'd be lost without it.
I'm a pretty new climber. I didn't really sink my teeth into climbing until about 6 months ago. I guess you could say that i progressed out of luck and the male mentality of pulling my legs up the wall. I have noticed that after 6 months, I've picked up some moves without knowing it, like flags and drop knees. I never REALLY felt comfortable though until getting on the wall after reading your book and actually paying attention to my feet and pivoting!! I can feel already that just by learning to place my feet right and pivoting, that so many more options are open to me.
Its exactly what i needed!
Thanks guys
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tommez
Mar 22, 2006, 9:34 AM
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I had the same problem. I ordered it from amazon.com instead..
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tommez
Mar 22, 2006, 9:38 AM
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In reply to: Dan and Doug, I would like to join the growing crew of people commending you on a great book, but can't, as despite ordering the book in August 2005, amazon.co.uk still haven't sent it to me, have emailed them, and they say the are having problems with their distributors :cry:
I had the same problem. I ordered it from amazon.com instead..
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serpico
Mar 22, 2006, 9:49 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Dan and Doug, I would like to join the growing crew of people commending you on a great book, but can't, as despite ordering the book in August 2005, amazon.co.uk still haven't sent it to me, have emailed them, and they say the are having problems with their distributors :cry: I had the same problem. I ordered it from amazon.com instead..
Same here, I ordered from Amazon.com three weeks ago and my copy arrived last week. It also worked out a couple of quid cheaper.
great book Toby, worth waiting for.
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sul-pont
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Mar 23, 2006, 12:54 AM
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In reply to: It's up to you now, Sul.
Thank you for all the helpful information. I'll try to get some bigger holds put on the slab in my gym and in the meantime concentrate on the pressing exercise while trying to use as little of my upper body as possible.
I am grateful for the opportunity to share my personal information with you; please bear with me.
My pyramid is a bit strange. Last season I learned to lead trad because that's what I wanted to do at the time and that was what was available to me (in the Gunks -- I live in NYC) in terms of climbing options. Because I was just learning to place gear, I took the difficulty level of the routes I was climbing far below my maximum in order to begin building the skills of a good trad leader. Therefore, my outside trad leading pyramid looks like this:
5.8 5.8
5.7 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.7
5.6 5.6 5.6 5.6 5.6 5.6 5.6
5.5 5.5 5.5 5.5 5.5
About 2/3 of these were onsights, if it makes a difference.
Since I've only led sport a few times, when I was just getting started and was living in a different area, I don't have a redpoint pyramid at all. My harder outside climbs are all topropes that I put up after I was too mentally taxed to lead anymore on that particular day. I didn't start paying attention to climbs I was doing inside until I got your book, and I can't remember the specific grades of indoor routes I was sending previously. I estimated that I'm a mid-.10 climber since I can usually get a 10b on toprope after a few tries; I recently flashed a 10b on toprope and a 10a on lead, both in the gym. Anyway, here's what I can cobble together for my pyramid, inside routes are in brackets.
10d
[10c]
10b [10b] [10b] [10b]
10a [10a] [10a]
5.9 5.9 5.9 5.9
I can't remember specific gym .9's and below, or even give you an approximate estimate.
I'd like to start an outdoor redpoint pyramid as soon as the weather warms up a bit. Unfortunately, the best sport climbing option I can find is West Point which has the disadvantage of no assigned letter grades for the 5.10 and up climbs. I'm trying to find some locals who might have a better idea of the grades but so far, no luck.
My bouldering pyramid is all indoors, and tops out at V2. Again, I only recently started keeping track of my sends in the gym, but I've probably done about 8 V2's and 8 V1's in the past year. Here's what I've done in the past couple of weeks, looking to add a V3 at the top:
V2
V1 V1 V1 V1
V0 V0 V0 V0 V0 V0 V0
For fitness (sorry that it is incomplete -- I'll try to fill it in more this week):
Continuous climbing level (20'): 5.8
4x4: V0
Laps on routes: ?
Max bouldering level: V2
CIR bouldering: V0 (14 problems, 3' rest)
CIR routes: ?
Thanks again; let me know if I'm missing any more info.
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brad
Mar 24, 2006, 2:42 AM
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In reply to: Note that the book is not in stores in the US yet either.
As a data point for you, I picked up a copy at the Border's in Arcadia a couple of weeks ago. I'm reading through it now -- a very nice book, well written, good photos and diagrams, and a great DVD. I think this will really help my training a lot. Thanks to both of you!
Brad
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fluxus
Mar 24, 2006, 4:44 PM
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In reply to: As a data point for you, I picked up a copy at the Border's in Arcadia a couple of weeks ago.
Thanks for the info, is that arcadia CA? and thanks for the kind words, good luck with your training.
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brad
Mar 24, 2006, 5:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: As a data point for you, I picked up a copy at the Border's in Arcadia a couple of weeks ago. Thanks for the info, is that arcadia CA? and thanks for the kind words, good luck with your training.
Sorry, that was Arcadia, CA. I just checked the Border's online inventory, and it shows as being in stock at Pasadena now, but out of stock at the other area stores.
You know, I think the book alone would be worth $35, but the DVD makes it a real steal. It was kind of funny to recognize some local climbers and routes on the DVD, too.
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diligentia
Mar 27, 2006, 1:32 AM
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Sul-pont has been very cooperative in piecing together data on his current ability levels. Here's a summary:
Technically he feels a weakness with foot precision, which has improved some lately with training, and balance. Sul posted that he struggles with body position and that is mostly a balance (the relationship between his center of gravity and base of support) issue.
Physically we know the following:
Max bouldering grade: V2
Max 4X4 grade: V0
Max CIR grade: V0
Max continuous climbing grade: 5.8
Experience level. Here is Sul's sport route pyramid (I'm assuming he led these routes). They consist of a mixture of indoor and outdoor routes:
10d
10c
4 X 10b
3 X 10a
Sul's goal is to send an 11a in May of this year (less than two months to go). So now we know his starting point, ending point, and how much time he has to reach his goal. First let's examine his physical conditioning and compare it to what's typically needed on an 11a route. The 11a standards are:
Max bouldering grade: V2 so Sul is prepared for most 11a cruxes he's likely to encounter.
Max 4X4 grade: V0 to V1. Perhaps a little light here at V0.
Max CIR grade: V0, OK here.
Max continuous climbing grade: 5.9. Needs some work here on local aerobic conditioning.
Technically he will need to be good with foot precision and have a solid basic understanding of balance. In addition, 5.11 routes may require the ability to turn.
What should he do for the next two months to maximize his chances for success?
If Sul can climb four times each week, some indoors and some out, his schedule might look something like this:
Day 1: Training
Warm up and movement training - about an hour: Sul will need to keep pushing up his continuous climbing level by first extending his time on the wall to 40 minutes. Once he can do 40 minutes continuously he should increase the intensity until he can do 20 minutes at 5.9. While ARCing in this manner practice foot precision and turning.
Movement training - 30 minutes: Sul should pick a V1 boulder problem that he hasn't done before. Climb it once then examine every move for the balance involved - can the quality be improved by changing body position?
Pyramid building: Due to his narrow pyramid, Sul should begin immediately to build a broader and deeper experience level. On Day 1 send a new route at the bottom of your current pyramid (10a). Leading, of course! Work another at 10b so you can send it on Day 2.
Cool down: Another 20 minutes of ARCing at 5.7 or so.
Day 2: Training
Warm up and movement training: Same as Day 1
Movement training - 30 minutes: Sul should practice the turning exercises in the book until he can turn back and forth fluidly and with little conscious direction.
Pyramid building: Due to his narrow pyramid, Sul should begin immediately to build a broader and deeper experience level. On Day 2 send the 10b you worked the day before. Try to send another new 10a.
Cool down: Another 20 minutes of ARCing at 5.7 or so.
Day 3: Performance
Warm up: Lead two routes at 5.7. Lead two routes at 5.8. Lead two routes at 5.9. Move well and feel fluid.
Performance: Try to onsight a 10b. If you don't succeed, rest and try to send it on the second try. You should be able to send this route in three tries or less. Follow the procedure for a second 10b. Next work a route at 10c so you can attempt the redpoint the next day.
Cool down: Four laps on a good 5.8.
Day 4: Performance
Warm up: Same as Day 3.
Performance: Try to send the 10c you worked the day before. Make three solid burns before moving on to another route. If you don't succeed return to the route the next performance day. Work another 10b or 10c in preparation for the next performance day.
Cool down: Four laps on a good 5.8.
As the pyramid builds at the lower levels move the grades up on performance days until you've done two to four 10d's. Then you'll be ready for the 11a.
Note that I don't have Sul doing any 4X4's or strength training. That's not really what he needs to succeed at his goal. He's got to develop a firm understanding of his movement and get a lot of experience in the form of many sent routes under his belt to move up to 5.11. Sul needs to spend most of his time climbing rather than doing physical training activities, and under this schedule it really won't take him long to enhance his skills enough to send an 11. In addition this schedule will prepare Sul for the demands of upper 5.11 and 5.12 routes as soon as he busts through 11a.
I've used Sul-pont to illustrate our process in The Self Coached Climber. There is obviously greater detail in the book, but the basic process of assessing your current condition, determining a goal and time frame, and crafting a plan to meet your situation remains the same.
Hope that helps.
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sul-pont
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Mar 28, 2006, 9:49 PM
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First of all, let me say how grateful I am for all of this help. It is indeed a generous soul who takes the time and effort to help another person -- one who he has never met, I should add -- and that deserves to be warmly commended.
I've read carefully the training plan and I assure you that I will do everything I can to meet its demands. I also will be posting here from time to time to report on my progress and possible adjustments that might be made in my regimen.
There are a few things in this plan that will be very challenging in terms of practicality. I am trying to find the best solutions to these challenges and, as always, remain open to advice.
1) My access to outside sport climbing is limited. As a Manhattan resident, the nearest real sport area is Rumney, about a 6-hour drive, further complicated by the fact that I have no car. An alternative is West Point, though there is the disadvantage that the all the routes 5.10 and up do not have letter grades. I am planning on being up there is two days with a more experienced climber and hope to learn more. I am trying to get more info on possible letter grades from locals with not much luck yet. At any rate, I can get in some lead mileage. Realistically, one day a week at West Point looks like the most I time I can spend outside (this would mean that a "performance" day would have to take place at the gym).
2) The only lead area at the gym where I climb is a 35-foot roof, exclusively severely overhung. There are currently two routes within my grasp there, a .10a which I managed to flash last week, and another that I tried which is probably more in the .10c range (I'll have to check). There is one .11a but I'm going to build my pyramid further before attempting that climb. All other routes are topropes.
Yesterday I performed Day 1 of the training schedule. It broke down as follows:
25 minutes stretching.
40 minutes continuous ARCing traverse. I usually warm up with 20 minutes, so this was a big increase. I worked on movement drills found in chapter 4 of SSC. I can now do the same-side in traverse well, applying silent feet and glue hands. I am working on the straight-arm variation of this activity and am improving. I have also been tracking my missteps while performing the silent hands/glue feet activity and have seen steady improvement. 10-minute rest.
30 minutes on a new V1. This problem was surprisingly easy for me; it may have been overgraded. It was slightly overhung with a combination of what felt like moves that were either stable or dynamic in balance, with one move that felt like offset balance. (I will keep refining my understanding of these differences.) After completing the problem I took each move apart and looked for ways to get my hip into the wall and to maximize contact with my feet. The way in which I climbed the problem changed subtly after this investigation; it felt a little easier since I was being more efficient and my body was beginning to "learn" the moves. After doing this several times I moved on to another V1 that featured wide, traversing reaches. I felt that this problem, since it required a lot of matches and then reaches was much more of an offset-balance problem. I was pleased that I unconsciously employed a behind-the-leg outside flag, something I haven't practiced and can not ever remember using previously. 10-minute rest.
30 minutes on the pyramid. I know that I need at least twice this amount of time to work on building my pyramid but I did not manage my non-climbing time well earlier in the day and was forced to squander this opportunity. I will not compromise this in the future. I felt like I was a bit fatigued from the ARCing at the beginning of my session. I got on a .10a toprope that was slightly overhung with the crux right at the end. I have all the moves down and know I can send this fresh. Feeling a bit frustrated, I jumped on a .10b toprope and worked the hardest part. I will attempt to send both next time and then get on another .10a and work the lead roof .10c, trying for the send.
20 minutes cooldown traverse. I was very tired at this point but tried to stay focused. I could tell my footwork was deteriorating but remained intent on turning as fluidly as possible and remained vigilant for bad habits creeping in (reaching from the side that was not in the wall, etc.).
20 minutes PT exercises and stretching.
Again, many thanks to all who have helped.
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sidepull
Mar 30, 2006, 3:06 PM
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as i was thinking about my own training yesterday i realized that one of my biggest problems is stopping. in other words, i enjoy climbing and working on climbing so much that it's very easy to overtrain and lead to injury. that lead me to reflect on this thread - i'm wondering if sul-point is perhaps on the road to a quick injury given the amount of volume he is climbing. shouldn't he ease into things a bit more? say a week of 3 ARC sessions and stretching. week 2: 3 ARC and some traversing. week 3: ARC, traverse, and one day with a pyramid, etc.
it just seems that easing into things is safer even if the person is at a reasonable level of fitness. this isn't a critique - it's more of a question in statement form.
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overlord
Mar 30, 2006, 3:18 PM
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woohoo, ive got it. i walked into a bookstore and lo and behold there it was in the mountaneering section. just two of them and one went home with me. im really glad that i ALWAYS chect that section.
anyway, after reading about half of it on the train home i must say im pretty impressed.
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jmbekd
Mar 30, 2006, 4:20 PM
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Say you are just able to complete one 4x4 (or a roped CIR set). Is it better to increase the difficulty (of one or more of the problems/routes) or decrease the rest time between sets? Also, is there a minimum amount of time that one should spend resting between sets/routes? (if you keep reducing your rest time, you'll eventually end up with ARCing...)
Thanks,
JMB
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sul-pont
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Mar 30, 2006, 4:36 PM
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In reply to: i'm wondering if sul-point is perhaps on the road to a quick injury given the amount of volume he is climbing. shouldn't he ease into things a bit more?
Hey, sidepull, I appreciate your concern and I understand the seriousness of injury (I tore my labrum last year).
Before beginning Dan's plan I had been training 4 days a week prior for almost 8 weeks. The first 4 weeks consisted of 2 30-minute ARC sessions per day, 4 days a week. The weeks that followed consisted of 3 days of strength training per week and one day of ARCing as above. So, I have been pretty active.
That being said, and now having executed two training days on Dan's plan, I am pretty trashed by the end of the end of the day. I think the hardest part for me is doing so much sub-maximal climbing at the start of the day (40 minute ARC/Movement, 30 minutes Movement, then pyramid -- yesterday went 90 minutes --, and closing with another 20 minutes ARC. When I get to the pyramid segment I feel a little drained from the earlier activity (I take a 10-minute rest between segments, except before the last ARC session). And those last 20 minutes are tough. Tomorrow, I'll be outside for a performance day. I'm excited to see how it goes since it will be my first day out since last fall. However, I usually don't warm up so extensively (6 leads of increasing difficulty) before getting to the business, so I hope to have enough gas in the tank for the tough stuff.
I understand that pushing it is part of the game and that pushing it too much is the road to ruin. I feel like I'm a bit close to the edge but not so close that I think I'll get hurt, just tired!
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fluxus
Mar 30, 2006, 5:23 PM
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Concerning rest and recovery, Dan and I do advocate a high volume of climbing each day, but its up to each individual to figure out how much rest they need, and to pay close attention to anything in connective tissue or joints or mucles that might feel like the onset of an injury.
There are no universial formulas for rest. Its up to the individuals wisdom.
Just last week I went out on saturday for a performance day and quickly discovered that I was not fully recovered from my thursday night training session. I had to change my goals for the day accordingly. Hey it happens, but when it does its a learning experience.
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diligentia
Mar 30, 2006, 6:07 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: i'm wondering if sul-point is perhaps on the road to a quick injury given the amount of volume he is climbing. shouldn't he ease into things a bit more? Hey, sidepull, I appreciate your concern and I understand the seriousness of injury (I tore my labrum last year). Before beginning Dan's plan I had been training 4 days a week prior for almost 8 weeks. The first 4 weeks consisted of 2 30-minute ARC sessions per day, 4 days a week. The weeks that followed consisted of 3 days of strength training per week and one day of ARCing as above. So, I have been pretty active.
I had considered this before making my recommendation. Sul-pont has posted extensively on his training schedule in various threads so I was confident he would be able to sustain the workload.
In reply to: That being said, and now having executed two training days on Dan's plan, I am pretty trashed by the end of the end of the day. When I get to the pyramid segment I feel a little drained from the earlier activity (I take a 10-minute rest between segments, except before the last ARC session).
Time for our first adjustment. Do your long ARC at the end of your session and the shorter 20 exercise at the beginning. You don't need to be fresh to ARC, and you should just be well warmed up as you move into the pyramid segment of your workout. You'll still feel worked at the completion of the workout, but then that is one of our goals.
In reply to: tomorrow, I'll be outside for a performance day. I'm excited to see how it goes since it will be my first day out since last fall. However, I usually don't warm up so extensively (6 leads of increasing difficulty) before getting to the business, so I hope to have enough gas in the tank for the tough stuff.
Remember where we're going here: lots of experience. The many warm up routes simply feed right back into our goal of gaining as much experience as possible in a short period of time. If you stay with this plan it won't be long before this "lengthy" warm-up seems perfectly reasonable.
Make the adjustments and stick with it. Good luck on your first outdoor performance day.
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sul-pont
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Mar 30, 2006, 7:00 PM
Post #148 of 177
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In reply to: Make the adjustments and stick with it.
Will do!
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sidepull
Mar 30, 2006, 8:19 PM
Post #149 of 177
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Registered: Sep 11, 2001
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In reply to: There are no universial formulas for rest. Its up to the individuals wisdom.
Flux - you're right on but there's a lot bundled up in the concept of wisdom here. My experience has been that I have to plan ahead and then really force myself not to go beyond my boundaries because as soon as I start climbing I really really want to push - training days become performance days, low volume gets high, etc. More than anything I was voicing the concern because for me, climbing is often like the new VW commercials with the little "my fast" pokemon thing tempting me to try harder. I can hear my training wall calling to me now . . .
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diligentia
Mar 31, 2006, 12:32 AM
Post #150 of 177
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Registered: May 24, 2005
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In reply to: Say you are just able to complete one 4x4 (or a roped CIR set). Is it better to increase the difficulty (of one or more of the problems/routes) or decrease the rest time between sets? Also, is there a minimum amount of time that one should spend resting between sets/routes? (if you keep reducing your rest time, you'll eventually end up with ARCing...)
For each set, try to keep your rest period approximately equal to the time you spent climbing. Increase the intensity rather than decreasing the rest period.
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