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holdeddie


Mar 31, 2006, 10:07 PM
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El Cap free-- dang
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I just got done reading the lastest alpinist on the tommy/beth free climb of the nose and how tommy freed 2 of elcaps routes in a day.
I think that insane and now thinking about it-I want it free (cant a man dream)
so is tommy the first to free el cap twice in one day??
EDIT because im retarded


weschrist


Mar 31, 2006, 10:09 PM
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Pretty funny how Tommy's ascent was never reported as

The First Male Free Ascent of the Nose


winkwinklambonini


Apr 1, 2006, 1:36 PM
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^ :lol:

Good point, can't believe I hadn't thought of that....


shazinky


Apr 1, 2006, 1:50 PM
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Technically I believe Scott Burke achieved the first male free ascent. Though over a long period of time he freed all pitches.


winkwinklambonini


Apr 1, 2006, 2:40 PM
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So it's 3 female/one maybe two male? Is that right? Hill, Davis, Rodden/Caldwell, Burke?


vegastradguy


Apr 1, 2006, 2:42 PM
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In reply to:
Technically I believe Scott Burke achieved the first male free ascent. Though over a long period of time he freed all pitches.

true, but of course many bitch about the style because he didnt lead the great roof pitch (ran out of time)...although as far as free ascents go, his was the first male free ascent of the Nose. my opinion: he climbed it free- thats already about 10 light years ahead of what i can do, so who am i to bitch?

And yes, I belive that Tommy is the first to free two El Cap routes in a day...


weschrist


Apr 1, 2006, 2:59 PM
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Since when did a TR count as a free ascent?

Did Beth send every pitch on the Nose as well?

And if TR's do count as free ascents (not in my book!) and Tom's ascent of the Nose was infact the SECOND MALE ASCENT... why wasn't there more to say about Beth's impressive achievement.

Just trying to give credit where credit is due. No disrespect to Tom, as I am sure he was at least as psyched for Beth as anyone else.

I just find it funny that Lynn Hill's send of Midnight Lightning got all that press as being the first FEMALE send... yet there was little mention of sex for Tom's ascent.


tonloc


Apr 1, 2006, 3:02 PM
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we get it...lynn hill freed the nose first, congrats to her that is amazing...but tommy freed two el cap pitches in one day, that is the big deal here for talking about...


socalbolter


Apr 1, 2006, 3:19 PM
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It might just be splitting hairs to some, but I believe a clean toprope ascent is a free ascent. Just don't go calling it a redpoint.

To not credit Scott's immense effort (and ultimate success) due to his climbing part of the route in a less-accepted style robs him of his due aclaim.

The man is probably the single individual who has worked the hardest in the effort to free the route. On top of this he was also instrumental in Lynn Hill's successes on the route.

Give the guy his props!


weschrist


Apr 1, 2006, 3:50 PM
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To not credit Scott's immense effort (and ultimate success) due to his climbing part of the route in a less-accepted style robs him of his due aclaim.

Shit, effort does not equate to "due aclaim!" If it did I would have all the aclaim in the world just for getting my fat ass out of bed every morning... let alone for hauling it up everything I have ever done.

In reply to:
who has worked the hardest in the effort to free the route.

That is great for him, seriously. But so what? I know people that have probably worked harder to get themselves up a 5.10 project. Are you claiming he tried harder in his accomplishment than other people try on their 5.8's or 5.14's or v4's or whatever?

The logical conclusion is that you are going to have to start including number of tries, people's lifestyle choices (family, etc), genetic gifts or lack of, emotional distress, up bringing, age, physical abnormalities, etc. I think Samet had an equation that could be applicable here...

In reply to:
Give the guy his props!

I'll give the guy all the props he deserves... but I haven't met him so he gets the standard props that anyone else that enjoys climbing gets.

If he is cool he gets more, if he climbs hard he gets slightly more, if he is a dick and is the best climber in the world he gets none.


vegastradguy


Apr 1, 2006, 5:23 PM
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Since when did a TR count as a free ascent?

um, always?

In reply to:
Did Beth send every pitch on the Nose as well?

absolutely, just like Tommy did when they did it as a team.

in the world of mortals, when you climb a multipitch route with your partner and swing leads, do you count it as a free ascent? yes.

so why is the standard different for those pushing the envelope? it shouldnt be, imho.


winkwinklambonini


Apr 3, 2006, 3:19 PM
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A quote from Tommy's article from the Alpinist:
"In the twelve years since Lynn's first free ascent, only Scott Burke had come close to repeating her accomplishent." Tommy doesn't seem like the kind of person who would slight anyone, so it's got to be accepted that Scott "came close", but didn't actually free the nose.
Therefore Tommy and Beth as a team completed the second free accent, THEN Tommy got the FMA in a day, THEN he got the first ever double el cap free in a day....OK I'm going to do Recombeast and Diedre in a day, then I'll be cool too? NO? Damn!


addiroids


Apr 3, 2006, 4:00 PM
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In reply to:
there was little mention of sex for Tom's ascent.

DURING??? I bet not.

But afterward, I bet Beth jumped his bloddied bones!!!!

And last time I checked, it was Tommy Caldwell, not Tom Caldwell. Hell, are we going to start referring to Timothy O'Neill, Russell Walling, and Jonathon Middendorf??? Sorry to include the Fish in that list of good climbers...it was the only other shortened name I could think of.

I'm light.


benj


Apr 3, 2006, 4:15 PM
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Tommy and Beth swapped leads on their team ascent so each would have toproped half of the pitches to Burke's 1. Is it only considered a redpoint if the pitch you are following has been lead clean by someone? Or is the issue that Scott didnt make a continuous ascent?


winkwinklambonini


Apr 3, 2006, 5:46 PM
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In reply to:
Tommy and Beth swapped leads on their team ascent so each would have toproped half of the pitches to Burke's 1. Is it only considered a redpoint if the pitch you are following has been lead clean by someone? Or is the issue that Scott didnt make a continuous ascent?

If you have gotten all the moves on a boulder problem, your goal is to link them together to send the whole problem. It's the same with a single pitch route, and multipitch routes as well. I suppose there is some philisophical territory when a route may need to be done in multiple days, greying the line between working individual parts of a route and doing the route in one push. The Beth/Tommy team freed the nose in one push. Scott worked it. Also if Scott did end up leading all the pitches in one push, then he would get credit for doing it, instead of a shared credit in Beth and Tommy's case. That explains your question about have followed one pitch vs. half of them. So the issue is both that he didn't do it in a continuous accent and that he didn't lead all the pitches.

Read the article, it's pretty cool.....


fracture


Apr 3, 2006, 5:56 PM
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In reply to:
Since when did a TR count as a free ascent?

Since always. Lynn Hill toproped midnight lightning; was that aid?

In reply to:
Did Beth send every pitch on the Nose as well?

Yes, but some (such as the hardest pitch, the "Changing Corners") she followed on toprope.

In reply to:
I just find it funny that Lynn Hill's send of Midnight Lightning got all that press as being the first FEMALE send... yet there was little mention of sex for Tom's ascent.

Look above. Lynn toproped ML. If that was valid, then so was Burke's ascent of the Nose.

(And by the way: I have seen a couple articles talking about Burke's ascent as the "first male ascent".)


fracture


Apr 3, 2006, 6:07 PM
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It might just be splitting hairs to some, but I believe a clean toprope ascent is a free ascent. Just don't go calling it a redpoint.

You used to have to hang your draws to call it a "redpoint" also.

I say screw that. Topropes are valid redpoints. Sport climbing is about movement, not clipping. Not danger or being bold (and leading a sport route isn't either of those anyway). Not the "risk" of a (safe) leader fall.

Further, fully toproping many sport routes is harder than leading them. Many routes in my area would be downright dangerous to toprope (and some of them don't even have anchors). Why should something which is harder (or more dangerous) be considered worse style? That's completely nonsensical.

The prejudice against toproping is archaic dogma, from the days when climbing was approached from neo-religious and irrational perspectives rather than as a sport which we engage in for fun. I like climbing, and to me that means I am interested in the complexities of the actual movement involved in climbing. I want to do hard moves---not waste any more time than necessary with the bullshit distractions you have to put up with just so you don't die.

To steal a witticism from Joe Hedge: don't talk shit about toproping; I've done some of my best leads that way. ;)


fracture


Apr 3, 2006, 6:14 PM
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By the way, I'm suprised no one has mentioned that the pitch on the Nose which Burke toproped is a traverse under a roof.

Wtf does it matter whether the rope was going to his left side or to his right side? Eh?


Partner mr8615


Apr 3, 2006, 6:33 PM
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I can say that I'm more aware on lead of any kind than on toprope. If you think the head game isn't part of climbing, I'm going to have to disagree with you.

On topic, I agree, Tommy and Beth are bad ass. Two El Cap routes in a day is freakin out of this world.


far_east_climber


Apr 3, 2006, 7:06 PM
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A lot of people seem to forget about a man called Richard Wilson who apparently free-climbed all the pitches of the Nose in the early 1980's, although it was never publiscised/readily reported because he took a fall on the Great Roof pitch when his intention was for an onsight and he did not want to tarnish his reputation as an up-and-coming climber.


fracture


Apr 3, 2006, 7:45 PM
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In reply to:
I can say that I'm more aware on lead of any kind than on toprope. If you think the head game isn't part of climbing, I'm going to have to disagree with you.

Yes, mental and emotional issues are a huge part of climbing (and many other sports). But the "risk" of a safe sport climbing fall is generally not a significant portion of that except at the very lowest levels of difficulty.

You basically can't really even start sport climbing until you are comfortable on lead and taking safe falls, at least the vast majority of the time.


fracture


Apr 3, 2006, 7:47 PM
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In reply to:
A lot of people seem to forget about a man called Richard Wilson who apparently free-climbed all the pitches of the Nose in the early 1980's, although it was never publiscised/readily reported because he took a fall on the Great Roof pitch when his intention was for an onsight and he did not want to tarnish his reputation as an up-and-coming climber.

It ain't listed here, so I find it pretty hard to believe. ;)


weschrist


Apr 3, 2006, 8:56 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Since when did a TR count as a free ascent?

um, always?

Vegas always did have different standards.

In reply to:
Did Beth send every pitch on the Nose as well?

In reply to:
absolutely, just like Tommy did when they did it as a team.

So.... who freed every pitch first? Who gets the 2nd ascent? Could it be that two women freed the Nose before a guy did? Enquiring minds want to know.

In reply to:
in the world of mortals, when you climb a multipitch route with your partner and swing leads, do you count it as a free ascent? yes.

NO.

If both partners do every pitch without hanging then possibly. But even then, if I got on the Rostrum and TR'd the Alien Roof by the skin of my teeth I wouldn't even THINK to say I sent it... I would throw it right on the top of my list of things I NEED to send.


weschrist


Apr 3, 2006, 9:05 PM
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I say screw that. Topropes are valid redpoints.

Call it whatever you want, but it just ain't right.

I watched a guy stick a crux dyno to a jug just before the chains, try to get set up to clip, but couldn't hold on. Another wanker at the crag called it a send and congratulated him. I was pleased to see the climber had more dignity than that and didn't consider it a send because he felt like he didn't finish the route.

You are only cheating yourself when you let the benchmarks of success deteriorate to fit your feeble existence.


vegastradguy


Apr 3, 2006, 9:10 PM
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In reply to:
Vegas always did have different standards.

my standard is that 'free' means not using gear for upward progress. since when was this different from any other definition of the word?

In reply to:

So.... who freed every pitch first? Who gets the 2nd ascent? Could it be that two women freed the Nose before a guy did? Enquiring minds want to know.

who cares? they both sent it free....doesnt much matter who sent which pitch first...

In reply to:
in the world of mortals, when you climb a multipitch route with your partner and swing leads, do you count it as a free ascent? yes.

NO.

If both partners do every pitch without hanging then possibly. But even then, if I got on the Rostrum and TR'd the Alien Roof by the skin of my teeth I wouldn't even THINK to say I sent it... I would throw it right on the top of my list of things I NEED to send.
well, then, i guess whatever floats your boat. for most routes, i consider it a free ascent if i dont hang. if its a route that is important to me, i just dont get on it until i have a fair chance of sending it free- and if there is a specific pitch on the route i want to lead (usually the crux), then i lead it. i dont see how this is a big deal....

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