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wzrdgandalf
Apr 3, 2006, 3:38 AM
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The other day i was out with a friend climbing. He wanted to lead a pretty stout 9 and hasnt been leading for long. he got to the third bolt about 45 feet up and decided that he had enough. I threw my back out a few days before and decided to go climbing anyways. I toproped up to the third bolt and then went another bolt up. the fifth bolt was then another 20 feet above that fourth one. I didnt want to risk a runnout that large with my back and me not being at full strength at all. I ended up having him send up a length of webbing which I put a double fishermans in and hitched it around the bolt. I then ran the rope through the webbing and rapped down. I didnt want to leave his draw up there so I risked my own neck to save 15 bucks of his. I know that many people would think this stupid, i know i wasnt really thinking. Is there any easy ways, or safer ways to get off a route without the anchors and without losing a draw? Or under no circumstances should you use inferior means to get off with saving 15 dollars. Are there safer methods than a draw?
Any advice? I hope im not opening my self up to too much ridicule but maybe i deserve it.
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fearlessclimber
Apr 3, 2006, 3:44 AM
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what you could do is anchor in with your daisy chaind and then set a rappel through the bolt , if the boltis sharp and there is a lot of drag in the route i dont reccommend it, but ya that is one way. another wat is to buy those really cheap omega pacifics, throw one of those on there an lower off of it.
to prevent this from happening again, just make your friend climb it, it will be good for him, but make sure he doesnt do anyhting stupid. :lol:
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kaczoron
Apr 3, 2006, 3:55 AM
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I guess spaced bolts and a busted back negate this, otherwise back jumping is fine, if you are carefull. Rapping off webbing like you did is ok too, but it helps if you can retrieve the webbing, (to keep the route tidy) this isn't too hard if the route is short and you are creative with your aproach.
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mped
Apr 3, 2006, 4:05 AM
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Quick Links work good. Usually $5 per one. Better than leaving a $6+ biner with a gate that can open.
http://flags.com/...ories/Quick-Link.JPG
Also down-climbing can work in some situations. When I was in Alabama I didn't have a guide book and was leading by look. I decided to climb a route that looked 5.11ish. I made it three bolts up but not close to the fourth. The bolts were close enough to downclimb what turned out to be a 5.12b.. Then again, in Red Rocks it was just easier to finish the route than looking at a dangerous downclimb.
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sbaclimber
Apr 3, 2006, 4:07 AM
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Search for 'bailing'.... it won't take long to get an idea of what methods are out there.
What you did was okay.....
Do not put your rope directly through the hanger, unless it is one specifically designed as a rap hanger (not likely half way up a sport route).
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wrbill
Apr 3, 2006, 4:07 AM
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What you did with the webbing is not far from the normal way to bail a route. The way that I have bailed and it was in climbing mag a few years back. You anchor yourself to the bolt, then use a 2' runner threaded through the bolt. You untie and thread the rope through both loops of the runner and tie the rope one loop of the runner, after that pull the rope through. When it is all said and done you will have three lenghs of rope that go to the ground. You hook in for a rap to the two ropes that go through the runner. After rapping down you pull the middle rope. Do not pull the rope that is tied in to the runner or the loose end that is on the ground. If you pull the wrong rope you will get everything stuck at the top. This system only work if you are less then 1/3rd the total rope length.
Please do not try this till you have tried it on the ground and under stand the safety of the system. I will try to post some pics to help make it easier to under stand.
Bill
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sbaclimber
Apr 3, 2006, 4:12 AM
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In reply to: I will try to post some pics to help make it easier to under stand.
Or.....be the poodle :D
http://climbing.com/...ips/tt223_sport2.gif
Edit: this is hotlinked from climbing.com, and is known as the Texas Rope Trick
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wzrdgandalf
Apr 3, 2006, 4:12 AM
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I would love some diagrams of that system, it sounds much safer than what I did. I have to say i rapped as quickly as possible because i didnt trust it.
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climbaddic
Apr 3, 2006, 4:23 AM
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I know this is little off the subject, but here it goes. If you can't do certain move right off the bolt, just put some sling on the last quickdraw, and use it as a foot hold. That usually gets me out of the crux, and I can climb past it. Hope this information might be useful for you.
Just another trick in the bag...
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cruze
Apr 3, 2006, 6:19 AM
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The way I see it is, how much did petrol cost to get to the crag? How much does a beer cost? Gear in the states is ridiculously cheap (cf here in Australia) so I'd say leave a screwgate or maillon on the top bolt and rap/lower off. A screwgate/maillon will be easier for the next punter to remove as well.
Alternatively there is a neat trick (slight twist on Poodle-power picture) where, if the lower off is no more than a third of a rope's length up the route you can simultaneously rap off the top bolt and down-lead the route (on belay) in case the top bolt (more likely to be a old fixed piece or trad piece) blows on the way down. I think it is also on climbing.com.
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thetroutscout
Apr 3, 2006, 6:47 AM
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Hey, wrbill, great pics and I have the same rope. I hate quicklinks. They get stuck, I get mad and can't get them off. They make for terrible booty brag too. Grab a few cheap biners from acmeclimbing.com, under the $5 for the quicklink and leave some decent gear! You've already reduced yourself to relying on a single protection point so why not use a biner that could open. However if you're in a place where the biner could open and the rope would fall out you need to practice your rapping. I don't care what people say, rapping off one bolt is scary. I'd much rather go off something I've placed myself. Then I have no "what ifs" running through my head as I'm heading towards the ground. Have fun.
^^ike
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rocketsocks
Apr 3, 2006, 6:59 AM
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Why can't you just rig the backup with another sling with the rope tied to it using a double bowline? No gear left behind, same level of redundancy.
P.S. I think it's funny how the poodle pic shows a quick-link being left behind while the climber goes to a lot of trouble to retrieve a tied runner worth maybe a buck-fifty.
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geotracker
Apr 3, 2006, 7:25 AM
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In reply to: Why can't you just rig the backup with another sling with the rope tied to it using a double bowline? No gear left behind, same level of redundancy.
Would you trust that sling to hold your fall after the main sling failed?
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wzrdgandalf
Apr 3, 2006, 12:53 PM
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The texas rope trick is exactly what i needed to know. next time ill be sure to use it. I know plenty of tricks for things i do when im up doing rigging in trees (Im an arborist), but the rocks are the new thing for me. For some reason I think there are going to be many more tricks and much more time to learn all of them. <-if i ever can.
Another question though, i remembered reading about a man in yosemite who talks physics and is the big man when it comes to big wall climbing and haul systems. I cant remember his name but the interview i read with him made it seem like someone used all his ideas for dr. piton or something like that in a climbing magazine. I realize that the information is free to everyone and it does not belong to everyone, but when someone uses the insight from someone else for money i would be kind of angered. Is there a controversy over this? it seemed like there would be some bad blood between some different people over this subject. What is this mans name again, it started with a "ch" i think.
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j_ung
Apr 3, 2006, 1:58 PM
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Quicklinks suck for the next person and even if you're low enough to use the Texas Rope Trick, it takes too long. For a combination of quickness, ease of use and consideration for those who come along after you, there really is nothing better than a bail biner (two if the bolts are suspect). It's easy to rig (clip! go!), easy for the next guy/gal to remove (unclip! go!) and the biners you leave can be used again by the people who remove them.
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kman
Apr 3, 2006, 3:12 PM
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Shouldn't webbing be tied with a water knot and not a fishermans?
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landgolier
Apr 3, 2006, 4:00 PM
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Grrrrrr
There is another thread going about this right now.
Here's the summary:
Quicklinks = terrible. They rust shut, clog the bolt, and when you leave one you're basically saying "I can't clean up after myself, so I'm leaving some trash and hoping that someone comes along with bolt cutters to clean up after me."
Texas rope trick: fine if you have something to stand on, otherwise a galloping pain in the ass to rig, and quite dangerous as well. You're hanging your whole life on one bolt, which you will proceed to jiggle every which way. You also have to be able to unweight the draw you have clipped yourself to the bolt with on the first try, or you will likely damage the sling and have to start over. Then you're doing the always dangerous rapping off a sling (normally not that bad but keep in mind you're cleaning sport draws on one strand, so uneven rapping is possible). All of this fuckness for the sake of smoking a $1 tied runner rather than a $4 biner (you brought a tied runner just for this purpose, right? You didn't? ok, use a $3 nylon runner and save yourself a buck, champ. All of your runners are spectra? Hmmm, those things cost more than cheap biners...)
I've got a shiny nickel for anyone who can credibly state that they have used this trick at the crux (not at some no-hands ledge or easy one-hand stance), found it easy and safe to rig when gripped, and honestly thought it was worth the pain in the ass. Until then, it's just some jingusness that Climbing printed because there are only a limited amount of things you can address as "Tech Tips" for sport (though god forbid they ever publish one teaching newbies how to recognize bad bolts).
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beckerw
Apr 3, 2006, 4:43 PM
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i usually use bootied carabiners. however, if you are close enough to the ground you can use a stickclip to remove the draw after you rap off it. hail...another use for the stick clip!
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j_ung
Apr 3, 2006, 5:03 PM
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In reply to: i usually use bootied carabiners. however, if you are close enough to the ground you can use a stickclip to remove the draw after you rap off it. hail...another use for the stick clip!
http://www.rockclimbing.com/post/1068669#1068669
:D
In reply to: ...god forbid they ever publish one teaching newbies how to recognize bad bolts.
Easier said than done. It sometimes isn't possible to determine a bolt's worth with any accuracy. It's probably safe to say that bad-looking bolts are in fact bad. But certainly, not all bolts that look good actually are good.
Of course, I'm not saying it isn't worth it to try. I suppose a list of the really obvious red flags would be especially helpful. Here's some good reading for anybody interested: http://www.safeclimbing.org/education.htm
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landgolier
Apr 3, 2006, 5:15 PM
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Oh, I know, there is mank, and there is truly devious wolf in sheeps clothing mank. I'm talking more about how to recognize new vs. old bolts, good vs. junk hangers, spinners and such, and basic warning signs that even though the bolts are shiny the bolter didn't know WTF they were doing. Pretty redundant for anybody with experience, but let's get real about who is reading the sport tech tips and expecting to learn something they don't know.
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climb_ian
Apr 3, 2006, 5:24 PM
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bail biner, and if thats to spendy, jump off
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landgolier
Apr 3, 2006, 5:30 PM
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I knew as soon as I wrote that that there would be some old Climbing article on the subject :D
I'm not sure when or in what context that was printed, as they don't have it in their index. My point is that I wish they would use that space for things like this rather than crap like jingus methods for saving $3 when bailing off of sport routes, divine revelations like "climbing at your limit requires committment," and the two articles on the obviously sport-climbing specific subject of road tripping that they've done in like the past two years.
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