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cliffwoman
Apr 5, 2006, 8:08 PM
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Right - so there's a general concensus I think that using your knee is bad technique, but I've also seen some very skilled climbers do it in a tough spot... any discussion about this? :?
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krusher4
Apr 5, 2006, 8:16 PM
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ummm...it's called a knee bar and if you can find one your lucky.
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sspssp
Apr 5, 2006, 8:20 PM
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In aid climbing, anything goes.
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brutusofwyde
Apr 5, 2006, 8:23 PM
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One word:
Chimknee.
Brutus
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musicman1586
Apr 5, 2006, 8:26 PM
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If using your knee is bad technique then what about using your elbows in an off-width or other similar things? Who says climbing has to be all hand and feet?
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krusher4
Apr 5, 2006, 8:31 PM
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In reply to: If using your knee is bad technique then what about using your elbows in an off-width or other similar things? Who says climbing has to be all hand and feet?
also bad technique dab....
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brutusofwyde
Apr 5, 2006, 8:32 PM
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In reply to: If using your knee is bad technique then what about using your elbows in an off-width or other similar things? Who says climbing has to be all hand and feet?
Perhaps my last post was too abbreviated, so I will elaborate:
If you try to climb a chimknee without using the knee, you will be climbing it like a chim climber.
Brutus
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buckyllama
Apr 5, 2006, 8:48 PM
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Bad technique is doing things that do not assisit climbing movement or needlessly waste energy. If using a knee on a move makes it easier and more efficient, it's good technique. (of course taping bathooks to your knees might be frowned upon)
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shiggetyshiva
Apr 5, 2006, 8:55 PM
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I'm guessing the you're asking about mantling on to a ledge using your knee (?) While it doesn't get you any style points, it works. Kind of like the beached whale belly-mantle. :D
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tonloc
Apr 5, 2006, 9:11 PM
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the knee has been used, any part of the body can be used, even the beloved chin crimp...if its all you can get up there then go for it...
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schveety
Apr 5, 2006, 9:17 PM
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I say use it if you need to. When I first started climbing I was constantly getting yelled at, "Stefanie if you can put your knee on that, you can put your foot on that." Now I use it if I really have to, or when I am really tired. I find mantels often require the use of knee if a handhold is not in front or above you when you are stepping up, I often feel like I might pitch of backwards in these situations (depends on your balancing ability, sometimes mine isn't so great) (or sometimes a belly flop as was forementioned). And I obviously use my knee copiously in chimneys and offwidths.
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jeep914x4
Apr 5, 2006, 10:24 PM
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In reply to: the knee has been used, any part of the body can be used, even the beloved chin crimp...if its all you can get up there then go for it...
:lol: Very true. I can remember one route in particular where a "head hook" was almost unavoidable!
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potreroed
Apr 5, 2006, 10:57 PM
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There's nothing like a well-placed knee to get you through an awkward spot. Care must be taken, though, because knees are relatively delicate and easily injured.
Let me tell you my favorite knee story. It was Fall at Devil's Lake and I wanted to lead the huge Gargantua roof before leaving on my Winter migration. There were a lot of climbers about enjoying the recently re-opened crag and I had to wait quite a while before the top-ropers finished with Gargantua. Word got around that someone was going to lead Gargantua and all activity stopped and everyone gathered around to watch. It was deathly quiet as I began to climb except for the occasional click of a camera shutter. I pulled through the roof and was almost through it and standing when I began to barndoor out. Nothing to do but place my knee down to keep from going over. Right then I heard about a million camera shutters going off and the spell was broken--everyone began to talk and laugh and head off to other routes.
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dudemanbu
Apr 5, 2006, 11:01 PM
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I used a head jam last weekend.
is that bad form?
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far_east_climber
Apr 6, 2006, 1:59 AM
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I don't know what the deal is either. So what if it's 'bad technique' anyway... 'good technique' in my opinion is about being able to get up a route in a way that is personally efficient for you... if you find using your knee to get onto a ledge is the way to go and you find it much easier that popping a mantelshelf then go do it.
"Uh oh, illegal use of the knee!"
"Shut up, I'm a caver"
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rock_junkie
Apr 6, 2006, 2:38 AM
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I used my knee to type this post.
Anyhow, make take is that technique is both style and efficiency. While mantelling with your knee comes off as very unstylish, it might help you do what you have to do. However, if you want to improve, try avoiding this habit, it will help you down the road when high stepping head height.
Besides, you dont want to be standing around the camp fire looking like you serviced someone in the parking lot to get a ride to the crag.
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cosmiccragsman
Apr 6, 2006, 2:38 AM
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Brutusofwyde Wrote:
In reply to: If you try to climb a chimknee without using the knee, you will be climbing it like a chim climber.
GROAN!! :roll: :lol:
Cosmiccragsman
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briarpatch
Apr 6, 2006, 2:44 AM
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Hey rock. Thanks a bunch, I haven't laughed that hard at a post in a long time. :lol:
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dingus
Apr 6, 2006, 2:49 AM
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I actually had to unlearn that 'don't use your knee' bit. As beginners the use of the knee when mantling is self-evident... rote beginners with no instruction at all will automatically try it.
But you know, pants are expensive and style counts, so we lesrn to high step, which has its own charms.
But as I learned more and more of crack climbing, I began to realize that masters of the genre not only use their knees to great advantage, they use their sides and shoulders and thighs and butts and heads too. And they do it so subtly sometimes you have difficulty discerning HOW they just got a no-hands rest where you were desperately thrutching at the edge of a lieback off width.
A good kneelock is like... hmmm. Its pretty good.
DMT
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glyrocks
Apr 6, 2006, 2:54 AM
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In reply to: the beached whale belly-mantle.
did someone say hindu kush?
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up_for_a_good_time
Apr 6, 2006, 3:49 AM
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people who say no knees are dumb. i like knees. yay for knees.
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ahwoo
Apr 6, 2006, 4:07 AM
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i'm definitely not too fond of using the knee. it's not the prettiest thing, and it hurts like hell if you do it wrong, but whatever gets you to the top.
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alpine_monk
Apr 6, 2006, 4:15 AM
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IMO using your knee is no less of a detractor of "pure style" than using sticky rubber on your feet. I use both. make of that what you will.
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brutusofwyde
Apr 7, 2006, 12:43 AM
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In reply to: I used a head jam last weekend. is that bad form?
No, but you can improve on it.
There are several techniques available, each of which have their applications.
The "Passive head jam (aka face plant)" uses the tapering of lower face like a passive tapered nut in cracks of similar configuration.
The neck jam is far more secure and is used for slotted, keyhole placements, but its use is restricted to momentary shaking out of other trashed appendages, as prolonged use quickly results in unconsciousness.
The Head Torque (clockwise or counterclock from the climber's perspective) is used in slightly offsize head cracks, resembles the head movement of a puzzled dog, (Think "His Master's Voice" in the old RCA Victor logo) and is done with the jaw firmly clamped shut. The Head Torque reportedly was developed in Canada, and the padding used for it was -- you guessed it -- a Toque.
Then we get into the true head OW technique:
Back when Class 5 gym had a nice offwidth, the best technique I found for progress was a combination of peristalsis and Occipital-Mandible Bridge. The Occipital-Mandible Bridge is used for head jams slightly larger than the standard Head Torque, and is accomplished by pressuting between the top/back of your head and the lower jaw, by opening your mouth as hard as possible (think yawn with your chin in contact with the rock)
Padding for this move was originally an ace bandage wrapped around the head, but at one point I tried a diver's neoprene head-piece with better (although sweatier) results.
Hope this gets you headed in the right (or left) direction.
Brutus
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patto
Apr 7, 2006, 1:35 AM
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If you don't use your knee it would make bending you leg awfully difficult.
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